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Warning – not a Winchester. But sort of Winchester related as Winchester was sued by this manufacturer for patent infringement. The company was Bannerman and the Winchester involved was the Model 1893. Bannerman sued Winchester in October of 1894. While the Bannerman shotgun and the Winchester 1893 didn’t have actions that were very similar, Bannerman’s position was that because the M1893 had a forward slide handle and a magazine tube under the barrel, Winchester had invaded his patent. Bannerman lost.
My shotgun is a family heirloom. I have never fired it. I’m pretty sure my Dad never fired it. But my Dad’s uncle hunted with it. Based on the model designation on the side of the receiver, for years, I’ve thought it was Model 1899. Recently, a friend know knows Spencers and Bannermans much more than me, told me there was no Model 1899.
Fresh off our recent discussion of M71 serial numbers, I thought some of that careful scrutiny could be channeled toward this topic (along with eyes better than mine – sorry Tim T).
Here’s some photos:
I know of course the first digit is 1 and the second is 8. The third is either an 8 or a 9 and the fourth is an 8 or 9. The known Bannerman models were the Model 1890 and Model 1896.
Here’s a link to some information. If you check this link out, you will find a rifle I deeply covet and lust after. It’s a Spencer pump action but scaled down and in a rifle chambering. I think I may have seen it for sale or on auction many years ago. I find it super cool and it reminds me of the small number of Burgess wrist action rifles that were a scaled-down version of their shotguns (Shrapnel has one in .44-40 that is a two-barrel set and he has shot rabbits with it).
The Bannerman Suit… Winchester vs. Bannerman: A Blast from the past!
Here’s the link to the above:
https://lsbauctions.com/the-bannerman-suit-winchester-vs-bannerman-a-blast-from-the-past/
If the die was damaged or poorly made to start with, it can only be a guessing game. The two last digits are clearly diff from the cleanly stamped 2nd digit, so not 8s. That leaves poorly formed 9s as the alternative. If Western civilization had stuck with distinct & unambiguous Roman numerals, such confusion wouldn’t occur.
I’m not seeing how my fourth digit could have been a 6.
Curiously, even though the rest of the manufacturer marking and address is identical, there are some slight differences in the receiver between mine and the GI one.
steve004 said
Here’s an image I just pulled off the internet:
Date sharp on this one, but if it’s a diff model, it’s not relevant. NO way last digit on yours can be a 6, even if die was defective. Unless the digits, instead of being cut into a one-piece die, were individual dies held together in a clamp; if so, some careless dope could have inverted the 6 die.
Here is a difference I noted. Where the slide rod enters the front of the receiver, there is a bracket securing it with two screws. The shape of that bracket is different between mine and the GI one. This makes me work less hard to try to see that fourth digit as a 6.
For what it’s worth, I see 1899
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Steve, No need to apologize to me! I have said it way too many times that I don’t see things well in photos! This is no exception either. Tim
November 7, 2015
Offline
My eyes see 1899, my mind says 1896, I’m not married so I don’t know what it really says.
I read an entertaining article awhile back about Bannerman Island.
M8ke
Very interesting Steve.
I hope that you find one. It helps us all, as we do see different things out there besides Winchesters in our pursuits!
Antonio
Antonio said
Very interesting Steve.
I hope that you find one. It helps us all, as we do see different things out there besides Winchesters in our pursuits!
Antonio
Further research yielded the result that there was a Bannerman M1899. From the article:
This model was in production for a VERY VERY short amount of time, and in over 4 years of me searching for them i have only seen 3 pop up for sale, all having the same features and variations of parts and quality of work, and serials within 368 digits of each other….These are also marked as follows; Earliest serial ive seen was #18163, latest serial was #18531.
What I find interesting is my Bannerman has a 2 digit serial number.
I found this article:
There are two paragraphs on the 1899 a ways in, under the heading “The Model 1899”.
jsgwoodsman said
I found this article:There are two paragraphs on the 1899 a ways in, under the heading “The Model 1899”.
There are a number of inaccurate assertions/statements in that article concerning Winchester’s production of the Model 1890 and Model 1893. The author states that Winchester temporarily halted production of the slide action Model 1890 and Model 1893 in 1894 during the course of lawsuit. Based on actual factory records, that is positively a false assertion.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
jsgwoodsman said
I found this article:
There are two paragraphs on the 1899 a ways in, under the heading “The Model 1899”.
There are a number of inaccurate assertions/statements in that article concerning Winchester’s production of the Model 1890 and Model 1893. The author states that Winchester temporarily halted production of the slide action Model 1890 and Model 1893 in 1894 during the course of lawsuit. Based on actual factory records, that is positively a false assertion.
Bert
Thank you JGwoodsman and Bert. Getting down to the facts often involves a, “sifting through” process.
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