David makes a good point about barrel length. I don’t know whether cartridge case design makes a difference or not but some say the absence of a sharp shoulder causes the 30/30 to want a long barrel for best performance.  The extra four inches seems to allow factory ammunition to reach or at least to come close to published velocities, at least those published back in the day. 

My own experience with a prewar M64 with 20″ barrel was it was butt heavy and the front sight was awfully “nervous”, at least in my hands. A shooting sling helped the problem but was pretty slow to get into. The extra weight of the carbines’ full length magazines really made a difference for me offhand. 

That short Model 64 was a standard grade that had been nicely refinished so it didn’t cost the Earth. It did have the early  “pickle fork” forearm, which I disliked. Back then, only the Deer Rifle had the semi-beavertail forearm. At some point, don’t know when, the standard grade rifles got the wider forearm, too. A postwar standard grade 24″ rifle I got later was much easier to shoot offhand with the more weight up front.

M64lvr said
I want to add that I’ve tried very near a dozen different powders & bullets in three 30-30’s, and 110gr thru 190gr,  but plenty 150gr 170gr! What stands out most is LVR Powder is most always the most accurate in all three my 30-30’s and with the better bullets it usually most accurate with a near max or max recommended load. And according to every reloading book or online chart of recorded pressures tested, it’s often less than most powders while maintaining an estimated by memory velocity 100-200 fps faster when most these other powders showed more pressures at way less velocities! I’ve tried most all the 30-30 favorites, but plenty 3031, W748, Varget, IMR4895, and 4064. Now some these do give excellent accuracy,  but seem to loose accuracy when near a reasonable velocity. One exception is A4064, a very accurate consistent Powder in my 64, but way slower. 30-30 don’t need hot nodded I’ve killed few with a 170gr at less than 2200fps, but when you get best accuracy + safe velocities, I’m gonna use it!

Edit, after reading all considerations, I’ll be honest about one more thing? If a good 86 in 33wcf came my way? I’d probably consider trading almost everything I got 30-30 for it? One Rifle & cartridge I’d love to try, because for my hunting and use, I believe we’d get along fine, provided I could get brass? Plenty good bullets n powder for it! Nice one OCY!!!

  

You couldn’t go wrong with a good 1886 in .33WCF for anything in Kentucky. Brass can be made from 45/70 cases, although you might have to invest in some intermediate forming dies to avoid case splitting or collapse.  The only problem I can see with an 1886 is…. it’s an 1886. Everybody and his dog wants an 1886. Getting a nice 86 with a fine bore can put a bad hurt on a man’s plastic or make him give up something from his collection he will regret. Find a clean, used Miroku 86 and have it rebarreled to .33 WCF?  

348win said
Can anyone expand on Pre-War vs. Post-War: Is either design more durable?

I read citings of certain stocks being stronger

I don’t intend to dismantle this gun, but it would be helpful to know if one is more fragile than the other. Hunting and subject to breaking……not a good combo 😃

  

First a disclaimer:  I am not a specialist collector or scholar with vast knowledge of the Model 64. I have owned, shot and hunted with only four of them: a (nicely refinished) pre-war 20″ standard model;  two early post-war 24″ standard models; and my present, early postwar 24″ Deer Rifle.  All chambered in .30 WCF.  

The Model 64 is one of the Winchester rifles the design of which was influenced by the advice given to the company by the late Colonel Townsend Whelen, U.S.A. (ret), which can also be seen in the Models 65, 70, 71, 52B, and likely some others I don’t know about. Col. Whelen was an important Bullseye rifle shooter for the Army and held important positions in Army Ordnance, including CO of the Frankford Arsenal. 

Through his influence, the Model 64 differed from its predecessor, Model 55, in several, target shooter oriented respects:  a wider buttstock with more pitch, a full, thicker pistol grip, and — initially only in the Deer Rifle, but later in the standard style, a larger, semi-beavertail forearm; and an integral front sight ramp with hood. 

The earliest prewar specimens of the Model 64 do not have some of these features. The prewar standard  “carbine” I once owned was (to me) notably more fragile feeling because of its skinny “pickle fork” forearm. There may have been other differences but that was my first Model 64.  It was quite difficult for me to shoot accurately offhand, mostly because the short barrel and truncated magazine made it butt-heavy but the diminutive forearm didn’t help. The front sight just wouldn’t settle down. It had no sling swivels; perhaps a shooting sling might have helped. 

I can’t say my prewar “carbine” was fragile, in the sense it was more subject to breakage, but the later 24″ rifles, all three with more robust forearms and two of them with Super Grade swivels and bases, were superior hunting rifles, including for snap shooting. 

I would say, if you want a prewar Model 64 to hunt with, on stand or still hunting, get a Deer Rifle with all the Whelen improvements — and think hard whether you really want the 20″ barrel version. To me short barrels with shorter magazines are a poor combination for hunters. I’d choose a Model 94 carbine any day, which I think is why those are still made. They carry good and shoot good. 

Just my opinion.  However, good judgement comes from experience. At least in my case, an awful lot of experience has come from poor judgment. 

I think you’ve got two, diametrically opposed needs [o.k. wants.] 

You want a collectible Winchester with a pistol grip and a short barrel, which probably means a short magazine and a butt-heavy piece not ideal for youthful learning. 

You need a full magazine, pistol gripped carbine for your son’s use that is of high quality, accurate, and comfortable to shoot. 

Solution: Set aside $1200 USD. Then start saving the money you would otherwise spend on Starbucks coffee and lottery tickets, other nonessentials, until you have another $5,000 in working capitol

Use the $1200 to buy a brand new Marlin 336 30/30, as made by Sturm Ruger, equip it with a Skinner aperture sight, and give it to your son with a lot of practice ammunition.

While you are saving up the $5K working capital, start looking at and handling as many Model 64 Deer Rifles as you can find at WACA and other shows. BUY NOTHING, SEE A LOT. Learn the gun and the market. Learn how to spot frauds and rouged up pigs. This will take effort and a couple of years. Or, get the names of trusted, honest dealers from this forum, contact them and tell them what you’re looking for in a Deer Rifle. Buy it in person, not online or remotely. Don’t buy it from an individual unless his reputation has been vouched for by the WACA membership. There are no bargains. What you want is an  honest gun at the market price. Know your seller by his reputation. 

Prewar Model 64 Deer Rifles in original collectible condition are dear but there is a knowable price range. Learn it so you don’t become the Sara Lee of the marketplace. The one nobody doesn’t like. 

And “the best of British luck” to you.