Marcot, Paxton, Marron new title out|General Discussions & Questions|Forum|Winchester Collector

I also got mine yesterday and it’s on top of the read pile, right under Stroebel’s combined sights and scopes book. 

Henry,

I’m certainly no expert on these but I like them as others do also. It looks like to me you have a “Heavy Barrel”, M-1874, and with the Famed, “FREUND”, Dealer markings out of Colorado, I think you might have a desirable prize there!

I sure wouldn’t hesitate to hold and look at that, if you make it down to the OGCA/WACA Show in September. Who knows we might come to an understanding, or Deal!

I guess I’m asking for, “FIRST DIBS ON IT’, if you are interested in selling it, and I’m not even sure of the caliber, but I’m guessing it’s in the 45-70!!! 

To answer you’re question, Yes, it’s worth something!

Caused me to dig this out!

According to the book, they we’re in Cheyenne Wyoming in 1880, which is stamped on the rifle as a patent date.

Tony

Zebulon said
Henry,  What Tony said is the straight dope. Even I know the Freund logo means this rifle was more than likely a “real” buffalo rifle and carries with it all the romance of that Era. 
(Why do I have the feeling Henry’s question has an echo of Sergent Bilko? “What is this game you call ‘poker’?”)
  

Poker, did you say? Aren’t most Collectors poker players, so to speak??? 

Heck, we all like westerns, and have seen plenty of them, and in watching John Wayne in “The Shootist”, he’s haggling with “Mose”, the stable hand taking care of his horse, and they get to haggling, over who’s the best Haggler! That’s how enjoyable it is to deal with an expert like Henry, a true gentleman in every sense of the word

The “Freund Brothers”, we’re well known of the Era, or time period, back when Winchester was doing they’re thing along with the many others, plying trades. The Freund family originated in Prussia. Which the name means, Friend in English. Many of the family found themselves in Germany, and Frank Freund, emigrated to America, in New York, as many did, in 1857. After the Civil War, Frank Freund, a skilled craftsman, opened a gun shop in 1866 at Nebraska City along the Missouri River, in far Eastern Nebraska Territory. Frank took his brother George in and the “Freund Bros.”, were off and running. Having shops in Nebraska, then moving to several different locations over the years, as the newly invention of travel back then known as the “Railroad”, surely expanded the West, from back East.

With the “Freund Bros.’, they had a shop in Cheyenne, Wyoming as Frank liked to refer to an Armory. They even had a shop in Salt Lake City, Utah, not far from Ogden, Utah, where the “Browning Brothers”, set up shop.  

The brothers did so well, in those early years that Winchester had them on their list of nineteen, (19),”dealers and jobbers”, of the famed Winchester model 1866.  In the Salt lake City directory and Business guide, in 1869, they ran an ad stating; 

“We are agents for the Winchester Patent Repeating Rifles and Carbines”, for the Whole West”!

The “Freund”, brothers did a lot of advertising in many papers of the West among others and had several locations over the years, and were well known for they’re works. Denver, Colorado was another well known location, as was Durango, Colorado. They we’re known to have a location in New Jersey as a move East in 1885, also. The reason Frank stated was to better manufacture his rifles. 

I’m sure that Frank Freund, along with his brother George, was aware of the relationship that the Browning Brothers had with Winchester, and this had some influence on them, way back then.

The west was, being Cheyenne Wyoming was always the place they liked to refer to as home. Both Frank and his brother George passed in 1910, and 1911, respectively in the West.

Tony

Zebulon said
Tony,  That’s a fine history lesson, for which my thanks.  
Before I forget,  I learned something from the new Collector’s Guide.   Shiloh and others have written that “our” saddle rifle was never a named model  but rather a common reference to a Sharps buffalo rifle with a shortened barrel for scabbard carry. 
However, see page 130, excerpted below.
  

Bill,

Thanks for the kind words, as I surely tried to condense it down, as much as I could and hit some finer points.

Correct, the “saddle rifle”, term is a collector terminology, like the different terminology that us Winchester collectors have for the so called, “Trapper”. 

Does the book mention anything as to the, “OLD RELIABLE”, years that was stamped into the barrel?

I spoke with Henry a little bit this morning, and was telling him to take a look at his friends rifle and collection, as in front of the front sight, “Freund”, sometimes liked to put a skull and crossbones design that George was fond of, and rarely seen! When I asked him on the caliber he did say it was the .45 2 1/2 caliber. 

Pretty sure the .45-70- Government cartridge came about 1873, and the .45 2 1/2 was considered this cartridge with a 405 grain or 500 grain bullet. Sharps likely started using this cartridge in 1875 in their rifles.

Tony

Anthony said

Zebulon said
Tony,  That’s a fine history lesson, for which my thanks.  
Before I forget,  I learned something from the new Collector’s Guide.   Shiloh and others have written that “our” saddle rifle was never a named model  but rather a common reference to a Sharps buffalo rifle with a shortened barrel for scabbard carry. 
However, see page 130, excerpted below.
  

Bill,
Thanks for the kind words, as I surely tried to condense it down, as much as I could and hit some finer points.
Correct, the “saddle rifle”, term is a collector terminology, like the different terminology that us Winchester collectors have for the so called, “Trapper”. 
Does the book mention anything as to the, “OLD RELIABLE”, years that was stamped into the barrel?
I spoke with Henry a little bit this morning, and was telling him to take a look at his friends rifle and collection, as in front of the front sight, “Freund”, sometimes liked to put a skull and crossbones design that George was fond of, and rarely seen! When I asked him on the caliber he did say it was the .45 2 1/2 caliber. 
Pretty sure the .45-70- Government cartridge came about 1873, and the .45 2 1/2 was considered this cartridge with a 405 grain or 500 grain bullet. Sharps likely started using this cartridge in 1875 in their rifles.
Tony
  

In 1875 the manufacture of Sharps rifles moved from Hartford to Bridgeport.  In 1876 Old Reliable was added to the barrel.  The 45 Cal is confusing depending upon what type of rifle it is.  Long range target or sporting etc.