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December 9, 2002
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Not sure if this was posted here or not, as I didn’t see it. On Gun Broker as a Pre War, 1938, .270 Collector Grade. I see a few things that aren’t right on this. We’ll see what the members here say, as I’m thinking they already have seen this.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1187961341
Tony
November 5, 2014
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Hi Tony-
The most obvious concern is that the barrel is marked in Style 3C (one-piece roll die with “270 WIN.–” as the caliber designation), which was adopted in 1950. Since the last carbine barrels were made circa 1946, it would be very odd to find a 20-inch “Carbine” barrel made in or after 1950 on a factory original 1938 Model 70. The seller also says the barrel is 21-inches long, but I don’t know whether he’s correct.
I cannot accurately comment on wood or metal finishes from poorly lit on-line photos, but the barrel should be rust blued with muzzle face in the white. That is not the case here. The front sight should be a Redfield 254 full gold bead (0.310″) and the rear sight a Winchester 22G. This one has a Winchester 103C front sight, which is OK for a standard Carbine made after 1940, but not a mythical Super Grade Carbine made in 1938. The photos of the roll marked bridge have a lot of digital distortion. They don’t look right (repaired?) but it might just be the camera.
The stock, which once had a 1947-1950 half block Lyman 48WJS receiver sight on it (hence the “divot”), has the later position for the front swivel base. Since this began to change in early 1938, that’s not necessarily a problem, but I’d’ve liked to see the early stock on an early 1938 gun. The floor plate stamp is OK but not the earliest style stamp. The butt plate (at minimum) has been reblued. The receiver should be polished carbonum blue, I can’t tell what it is…
So my best guess is that the gun has a shortened barrel fabricated from a post-1950 Model 70 with replaced front sight ramp. It could be (???) an original 1938 Super Grade in fair condition that was rebarreled or something totally put together.
What are you seeing?
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 5, 2014
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At the risk of showing everyone that I am a total fool, I did buy this gun earlier this year. “Super Grade Carbine” 30 GOV’T’06 (s/n 21164). I am NOT saying that I believe ANY Super Grade Carbine to be genuine, but at least this one is made of all the right parts/finishes and has handling wear/marks consistent with the parts being together a long time. IMHO it’s what a 1938 Super Grade Carbine SHOULD look like if there ever were a “real” one… 
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
December 9, 2002
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Hi Lou,
I’m glad that you we’re able to respond and so quickly and in only a professional way that you know how. IMO!
At first glance I just didn’t like the rifles appearance overall, and then when I started looking closer at it, the Caliber designation was a very obvious tell tale, prompting me to look at the “one-piece roll die with 270 Win”. Then they’re is the 21 inch long barrel length, that surely had me suspect that something was up with this M-70, as far as being a true carbine or not. Again a quick first glancing, and reading of the description. You do bring up some good points on the poorly lit photos and how they can distort our views and or opinions. With the darker images and even focusing in as the GB scree allows us to do, it’s hard to get a really good handle on it. I didn’t focus a lot of my attention on the sights, as I’m kinda apt to glance over these until I determine the rest of a said firearm as looking all correct, and this one didn’t allow me to get to that point. The “divot”, where the Lyman receiver sight, once was in place, was very obvious to me, as it was to you, but I kept looking beyond the sights to try to wrap my head around this one some more! LOL!
That’s why I like to refer to you as Dr. Lou! 
Caveat Emptor once again!
Tony
January 20, 2023
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If WACA should ever adopt an official seal (the device, not the animal) complete with an impressive Latin motto, may I suggest the following;
Stultus et pecunia eius cito separantur
If a shorter saying, classicly known to both law and medicine, is preferred:
In dubio abstine
For the seal’s central image, an over-polished and re-blued Winchester Model 70 carbine with a post-1963 floorplate and Williams front and rear sights.
If not a seal, than perhaps a Sucker of the Year Award, self-selected, to be presented with solemn dignity at the evening Cody dinner:
A head and shoulders bust of Michael the village idiot, whose Academy Award-winning character was portrayed in David Lean’s 1970 film, Ryan’s Daughter, by the great actor John Mills.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 5, 2014
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Zebulon said
If not a seal, than perhaps a Sucker of the Year Award, self-selected, to be presented with solemn dignity at the evening Cody dinner:
A head and shoulders bust of Michael the village idiot, whose Academy Award-winning character was portrayed in David Lean’s 1970 film, Ryan’s Daughter, by the great actor John Mills.
Hi Zeb-
Are you saying that I resemble that remark??? Maybe I can be the first annual WACA Village Idiot Award Winner!!!
I never said my SG Carbine is “real”, nor did I say I believe it to be “real”… Only that if it was “upgraded” outside the factory (likely) it was done with the right parts (unlike the GB listing).
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
April 15, 2005
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Louis Luttrell said
Zebulon said
If not a seal, than perhaps a Sucker of the Year Award, self-selected, to be presented with solemn dignity at the evening Cody dinner:
A head and shoulders bust of Michael the village idiot, whose Academy Award-winning character was portrayed in David Lean’s 1970 film, Ryan’s Daughter, by the great actor John Mills.
Hi Zeb-
Are you saying that I resemble that remark??? Maybe I can be the first annual WACA Village Idiot Award Winner!!!Lou
Hey, I want in on that contest! 
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 8, 2024
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Louis, Like many Model 70 Collectors when I see a Super Grade Carbine I automatically assume that it is a made up gun. If Winchester in fact made a Super Grade Carbine I would expect it to be in .30Gov’t06 chambering. Since we know that this is by far the most popular chambering you would think that you would see more Super Grade Carbines in that chambering. This is not the case. If Winchester made such a thing, I agree that it would be the gun that you posted.
January 20, 2023
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Bert H. said
Louis Luttrell said
Zebulon said
If not a seal, than perhaps a Sucker of the Year Award, self-selected, to be presented with solemn dignity at the evening Cody dinner:
A head and shoulders bust of Michael the village idiot, whose Academy Award-winning character was portrayed in David Lean’s 1970 film, Ryan’s Daughter, by the great actor John Mills.
Hi Zeb-
Are you saying that I resemble that remark??? Maybe I can be the first annual WACA Village Idiot Award Winner!!!
Lou
Hey, I want in on that contest!
Bert
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0590055/mediaviewer/rm3119599872/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Zeb-
Howthehell did you get that photo of me at Bert’s place (Robin’s Nest) in Cody last month? I didn’t see you there… You must have spies everywhere!!! I guess bourbon has that effect on some people… Not that I look much better sober…
John Mills was great in that role!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
December 9, 2002
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Louis Luttrell said
At the risk of showing everyone that I am a total fool, I did buy this gun earlier this year. “Super Grade Carbine” 30 GOV’T’06 (s/n 21164). I am NOT saying that I believe ANY Super Grade Carbine to be genuine, but at least this one is made of all the right parts/finishes and has handling wear/marks consistent with the parts being together a long time. IMHO it’s what a 1938 Super Grade Carbine SHOULD look like if there ever were a “real” one…
Bo Rich said
Louis, Like many Model 70 Collectors when I see a Super Grade Carbine I automatically assume that it is a made up gun. If Winchester in fact made a Super Grade Carbine I would expect it to be in .30Gov’t06 chambering. Since we know that this is by far the most popular chambering you would think that you would see more Super Grade Carbines in that chambering. This is not the case. If Winchester made such a thing, I agree that it would be the gun that you posted.
Lou,
I like everything about you’re example. Bo brings up some good points also. You gents have made me aware enough to surly be careful out there, as my reckless nature can sometimes get me in trouble. LOL!
Tony
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