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Bert H. said
Not true… in my discussion with the ATF, they refer to the records at the CFM.
I sincerely apologize for recirculating this misinformation! Wonderful that “reason prevailed” with that, or any other fed gov’t agency! In my discussion with ATF, it was a major struggle to convince them that my participation in a 50+ yr old non-violent college “demonstration” did not constitute grounds for denial of my FFL. I succeeded…but not before enduring several months of rather intense consternation.
I agree with your sentiments Michael, no arrows cast from here, but I will take a few with you. Ive not been a fan of applying a premium to guns that are considered antique vs. those considered not. It’s a false perception that one is better than the other, all other things being equal. That 1899 date is an arbitrary line drawn in the sand by some politician(s) passing feel-good legislation to get more votes, curtail a perceived threat, or to satisfy the gun grabbers at the time the legislation was written, nothing more. And in this day and age, it offers no protections and could change at the drop of the hat, just ask our friends in England, Australia, or New Zealand. Whether considered antique or not, the truer value in a gun, whether made in 1878, 1895, 1901, or 1926 rests in the relative condition of the gun for its age to be weighed accordingly against survivability and the premium of buying one higher condition older gun over another.
So antique status allows us to buy and sell as we please, ship to where we want, etc. without govt reporting or oversight. Great, Im always for that. So, we are saving $50 bucks and possibly some postage on an antique gun purchase, but how do you justify the potential premium applied for the privilege? No doubt some dealers apply hefty premiums to antique guns, for those models that span both sides of the 1899 line. But I cant blame a dealer for asking more for an “antique” gun, everyone is entitled to turn a dollar and every potential buyer has the opportunity to use their best judgement to walk away. Whether using PR dates or not to establish antique status, its the perception added value perpetuated on the part of good old fashioned marketing that exists solely because of a date scrawled by politicians on a piece of legislative paper.
The PR dates are one of the most unpopular and contentious subjects among dealers and hobbyist collectors alike, regardless of what side of the fence you fall. I would disagree that much of the criticism is because collectors feel they’ve now been slighted and paid too much for a gun that is no longer considered antique. Maybe I just don’t run in those circles for which that is a grievance, but it was at their own peril in using the 1899 date as a milestone equating to a perceived value. Rather, and more commonly expressed, is that the use of the PR dates as the new standard removes thousands more popular firearm to the wrong side of the exemption ledger that previously existed for their trade or hobby or resource pool than it added. I would agree the PR dates are accepted for what they are in correcting the manufacturing serialization record. All good. That said, the rub for many is to find the wisdom in suggesting or influencing the BATF to abandon decades accepted DOM for which every collector and gun peddler across the country has in a printed a copy or a book and has been relying upon for years. That alone has created far more animosity and uncertainty than a realized benefit IMHO.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Most folks have a very narrow field of vision when it comes to topics like this, so here’s My slant on it \, being Canadian. Of course it makes a huge difference to Me in the value of a firearm, being antique or not, for one Technically I cannot purchase nor You sell Me a post 1898 firearm without a lot of added cost. For example, If I’m standing at Your table looking at a special 1873 Win. that was mfg. in 1899 that Your asking $39,000.00 for, I can’t buy it without a lot of bull—-, and extra cost. Now the fella 3 tables down the aisle has a pretty much similar gun to Yours mfg. in 1898, but He’s asking a little more for it, I’m buying it. Now Your wonderin’ why I didn’t buy Yours cause it was a better deal. The other part , being north of the border, when I want to display, transport, sell or do anything with a firearmin the U.S., when I get to U.S. customs they damn well better be antique or I’m not going to the U.S. today. I,ve had it happen. Four years ago I was booked and pre paid for 2 tables at Las Vegas, Louisville, Lakeland Fl. and ft. Meyers. I got turned around at the border because of a technicality on the antique status on 1 rifle out of 35 that I had with Me. So yes, to Me it makes a great deal of difference in value whether a gun is antique or not. I f I lived in the U.S. I think I would have to put some kind of higher value on an antique knowing I wouldn’t have the extra hassle and cost of having to ship thru f f l ‘s and so on. Plus it opens up the market to Canadians and there are still a few collectors up here who like those old firearms. I used to collect just Winchester and Colt Commemoratives but I got out of them mainly for this reason, it was very difficult and expensive buying in the U.S. and of course that’s where most of them originated. So when You say it don’t make any difference to You, antique or not, maybe You’d like to re-think that idea.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
History means a lot to me. Modern guns just don’t have the history that the same gun that was made in 1870 or even 1880. Sure, some modern guns went somewhere interesting and may have been used somewhere cool, but generally not as often. The old west was really over by 1890 or even a little sooner.
I understand exactly what your saying Henry and can wholeheartedly agree. In my case as I stated the antique status doesnt impact the way in which I look at or buy guns. For other folks its a lot different, as in your case and many others in the same position or deal only in antique firearms. And as you pointed out, and I was trying to relay in the end, is that most of the folks that have expressed an opinion to me on the matter are frustrated by the fact that it removed far more collectible guns from the pre 1899 list than it added. And that the pool of guns they used to be able to buy and trade got substantially smaller. Im all for less restrictions and more exemptions when it comes to firearms, they equate to a greater latitude of liberties in the buy/sell/trade game.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Chuck said
The old west was really over by 1890 or even a little sooner.
You need to watch “The Wild Bunch” again!
clarence said
You need to watch “The Wild Bunch” again!
I’ve watched it many times and if I see that it is on TV I’ll watch it again.
Chuck said
History means a lot to me. Modern guns just don’t have the history that the same gun that was made in 1870 or even 1880. Sure, some modern guns went somewhere interesting and may have been used somewhere cool, but generally not as often. The old west was really over by 1890 or even a little sooner.
One of my Uncle’s never picked up on the Old West ever being over. When my Dad pointed him out to me one sunny day in the early 1950s as he treaded his way among a throng of people on a sidewalk in downtown Nacogdoches, Texas, he would have fit perfectly, striding beside John Wesley Hardin…of the same locale almost a hundred years later. 
But I hear what you’re saying, Chuck!
Look at all of us old farts on this Forum. We are still living in the 40′ and 50’s.
The title of this thread reminds me of Patrick McManus (rip) and his story titled, “Cigars, Logging Trucks, and Know it Alls”
Shoot low boys. They're riding Shetland Ponies.
Chuck said
We are still living in the 40′ and 50’s.
Wish I could find a time machine to take me there; though actually, I’d prefer the ’20s & ’30s, mainly because I prefer the cars, clothes, & general ambience, which I totally immerse myself in every night by watching movies of that period. By the mid to late ’50s, the cultural rot that now debases this country was already beginning to set in. When men stopped wearing hats as an essential part of their daily wardrobe, it was a sign that our culture had begun its irreversible decline.
Old Logger said
The title of this thread reminds me of Patrick McManus (rip) and his story titled, “Cigars, Logging Trucks, and Know it Alls”
That’s bound to be right up there where locusts, bullfrogs and fireflies sing!
James
April 26, 2015
Offline
“Whether considered antique or not, the truer value in a gun, whether made in 1878, 1895, 1901, or 1926 rests in the relative condition of the gun for its age to be weighed accordingly against survivability and the premium of buying one higher condition older gun over another.”
Bravo! I have purchased antiques because I like the guns, not because they don’t require registration. Similarly, I’ve bought later Winchesters because I like the way they look or because they “fit” into my so-called collection. I use a C & R for the latter if required by the seller. I try not to argue with the know-it-all dealers; “Uh huh, uh huh, okay, well thanks for the info and have a great show!” and then I walk away.
Also, I once commented on using Proof House and Bert asked “Why do you go there????” This is a truly wonderful place to learn. Thanks, Bruce
Bruce Koligian said
“Whether considered antique or not, the truer value in a gun, whether made in 1878, 1895, 1901, or 1926 rests in the relative condition of the gun for its age to be weighed accordingly against survivability and the premium of buying one higher condition older gun over another.”
Bravo! I have purchased antiques because I like the guns, not because they don’t require registration. Similarly, I’ve bought later Winchesters because I like the way they look or because they “fit” into my so-called collection. I use a C & R for the latter if required by the seller. I try not to argue with the know-it-all dealers; “Uh huh, uh huh, okay, well thanks for the info and have a great show!” and then I walk away.
Also, I once commented on using Proof House and Bert asked “Why do you go there????” This is a truly wonderful place to learn. Thanks, Bruce
Good post Bruce. I agree high condition guns bring value but not always attainable by the average collector. I also collect what fits into my current collection & I just posted in another thread I go after rare & uncommon more often than condition. The chase remains alive with rare & uncommon where as high condition & value is often not affordable.
AG
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