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Chuck said
Manual, you shouldn’t be scared. You just need to do your homework before you buy.
Absolutely, but also stay away from all the supposedly mint guns (possibly refinished!) & those with rare features (possibly faked!). Such guns are, anyway, way beyond the means of most who are just getting their feet wet.
Biggest impediment to would-be neophyte collectors isn’t the warnings they sometimes find here, but simply the cost of a nice but standard ’73, ’86, or other major model; spending 3 to 5 grand just to “get started” would scare me. The cost of just one of those buys a battery of black rifles, which the owner can then have the fun of dressing up with the jillions of accessories made for them.
Chuck said
I didn’t want anyone to think that pointing out bad guns was a bad thing. I just felt that I see a lot of good guns too and that someone on this site should have been able to take a look and buy them if they were so inclined. Most auctions are advertised on the internet so nothing can really be hidden from others. There are a lot of guys on this site that don’t have 30+ years of collecting Winchesters under their belt. I’d like to see some of them get a good gun every now and then too.Manual, you shouldn’t be scared. You just need to do your homework before you buy.
I have an old car and the same thing is going on here too. Younger people aren’t interested and crooks abound. You can’t stop time and things always change.
I try and do the homework…..but when the experts say just about everything is fake, well you can get gun shy….pun intended……..
Manuel said
I try and do the homework…..but when the experts say just about everything is fake, well you can get gun shy….pun intended……..
But Manuel, that’s really not what they’re saying; they’re merely saying that some guns in “too good to be true” condition, or certain very rare options, got that way by fakery, & those make up only a small minority of the total market.
Hello and happy holidays to everyone.
I certainly would qualify as one of those guilty of posting “bad gun warning” threads but not any/many about good guns out there. For a LARGE part it just comes down to the amount of time I spend at this hobby. I am more interested and think it more important to point out the lemons and fraudulent guns to help those who may not spend as much time or be aware of those problems. For Model 1892 and Model 61 rifles assume that if I haven’t flagged it as problematic then it is fine. Obviously that does not cover all the guns with sanded and refinished wood or “Oval/P” proof marks on the barrels. In addition, if anyone has a question on a specific rifle of either of these model I am more than happy to to answer any questions you might have.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
not to be “nit-picky” but that would make me feel like (again just my opinion) any gun that has vibrant case coloring would have been refinished at some point in the rifles history. Example – A first model 73 with 90% case coloring……is it possible maybe……but a gun that old being in pristine condition…..one would almost have to assume it was refinished……
i have only been a member for going on four years and I think that by letting guests register and post only helps the Waca show that it is not an elite group- it personally showed me that people are out there to try and help educate those who are looking. It has only led to making the addiction worse! It has me making a much better decisions than I would have if I was just flying by the seat of my pants.
Every time I see someone answer someone’s question, I see that as positive and a great help to the future of the hobby. I can say I was far more scared prior to reading anything on this sight.
I think everyone on here are great stewards of the hobby and by openly sharing info on good guns and bad ones, helps everyone in some way
Manuel said
not to be “nit-picky” but that would make me feel like (again just my opinion) any gun that has vibrant case coloring would have been refinished at some point in the rifles history. Example – A first model 73 with 90% case coloring……is it possible maybe……but a gun that old being in pristine condition…..
Sure it’s possible, & guns of that description show up in high-dollar auctions. But seriously, are you in the market for guns of that quality? If not, why worry about it.
clarence said
TXGunNut said
Lou-
I respectfully disagree that your well-thought-out post was a mistake. You made some good points and whether I agree or disagree with them matters little, I feel you were trying to accomplish some good for our forum and hobby and that should never be considered a mistake.Certainly not! I always look forward to Lou’s comments on anything, because I can count on them being not only technically illuminating (just wish I could remember 10% of what he’s taught me about 70s!), but most carefully & logically articulated.
Yes, thumbs up to Louis Luttrell. A HUGE asset to this forum!
clarence said
Sure it’s possible, & guns of that description show up in high-dollar auctions. But seriously, are you in the market for guns of that quality? If not, why worry about it.
Whether i am in the market for a gun like that or not is irrelevant. But to the person who can afford it, wouldn’t it still be cause for concern?
Manuel said
Whether i am in the market for a gun like that or not is irrelevant.
You’re right, it isn’t. But guns of “a certain age,” such as the example you gave, will always show tell-tale signs of their age that can’t be faked, though assessing them can’t be boiled down to a simple formula of “here’s what to look for”; it’s a judgment call based on experience & the intelligent analysis of everything the gun is “telling” you.
The problem of fakery among what I consider “modern” Winchesters, such as M. 61s, is much more difficult, because those guns haven’t been around long enough to show significant aging, & many do survive in “as new” cond.
Hi Everyone-
Here I go again… Won’t be bad this time, I hope…
Professionally, I am a College Professor, which is probably where some of my BS comes from. One thing that often comes up amongst my ilk is the question of how people who have specific knowledge/experience (my case being a medical subspecialty) can impact positively the largest number of people (in my case patients with certain conditions). Sure… You can be the best private doctor out there and take great care of everyone you see, but you can only impact those you engage directly… An alternative strategy is to TEACH students and residents how to be as good as you are in hopes that at least some of them will go on to do likewise, so that your knowledge base (hence patient outcome) grows exponentially…
YES… I KNOW that this is garden variety self-justifying psychobabble mumbled by people, like me, who are trying to make themselves feel good about not taking a path that would have led to the most $$ (think disposable income for Winchester collecting 
). MRCVS… As someone else who’s made a big time professional commitment to service over riches, I suspect you KNOW what I mean!!!
One lame suggestion… Maybe each of the experts here should give thought to contributing an article to the WACA journal about some topic that they’re most passionate about. Something positive and educational… Based on facts but accessible to an audience that may not the experts you are. You can still “wow” the real experts without losing those who are trying to get to your level… I know many here, like Michael, Bert, and many others, do this and I find it very helpful when they write for the journal. The more detailed the better… But think about it, we’ve got many lifetimes of collective expertise here and a WHOLE LOT of people who both have something to share and who can write…
Spread the wealth and make publishing in the WACA journal a goal!!! Give the editor a broad range of well researched topics to consider… Heck.. I for one would pay higher dues to get a journal that was twice as thick and ten-times as informative!!!
Good Night,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Manuel said
not to be “nit-picky” but that would make me feel like (again just my opinion) any gun that has vibrant case coloring would have been refinished at some point in the rifles history. Example – A first model 73 with 90% case coloring……is it possible maybe……but a gun that old being in pristine condition…..one would almost have to assume it was refinished……
Manual when I see guns in almost perfect condition I really have to look very hard at them too. They do exist. My problem is a 50 year old restoration that now has patina is the hardest gun to figure out for me. I run for a second opinion if I can. I don’t own any real high dollar guns. I would much prefer 2 guns in great condition. Call me cheap.
Chuck said
Manual when I see guns in almost perfect condition I really have to look very hard at them too. They do exist. My problem is a 50 year old restoration that now has patina is the hardest gun to figure out for me. I run for a second opinion if I can. I don’t own any real high dollar guns. I would much prefer 2 guns in great condition. Call me cheap.
Exactly!!! I would venture to say even some of the best eyes would have a hard time with a 50 year old restoration(professional job obviously) that has age/patina’d gracefully.
Chuck said
I would much prefer 2 guns in great condition. Call me cheap.
Not cheap–smart. The mania among some to own “like new” guns, & pay hugely for the privilege, I don’t comprehend. But it’s that mania, & the deep pockets that go along with it, that’s made fakery what it is today.
Manuel said
I will say this as a new collector (young at 38) this site as informed me and scared the hell out of me.
Manuel, As a seasoned collector (old at 70), I have learned from my mistakes, but I prefer to learn from someone else before I make the mistake. Every time you have a chance to pickup and examine a gun, do it. You learn from experience, ask questions, and don’t be in a hurry. Nothing sours a new collector more than a mistake. I started collecting before the internet, (gun shows), fill the car with guns, fellow collectors, and drive. Talk about guns all the way there, at the show, and all the why home. Times have changed and now collectors use the “Forum”, the thing that hasn’t changed is, mistakes are expensive. Don’t be scared, be smart. T/R
TR said
Manuel said
I will say this as a new collector (young at 38) this site as informed me and scared the hell out of me.Manuel, As a seasoned collector (old at 70), I have learned from my mistakes, but I prefer to learn from someone else before I make the mistake. Every time you have a chance to pickup and examine a gun, do it. You learn from experience, ask questions, and don’t be in a hurry. Nothing sours a new collector more than a mistake. I started collecting before the internet, (gun shows), fill the car with guns, fellow collectors, and drive. Talk about guns all the way there, at the show, and all the why home. Times have changed and now collectors use the “Forum”, the thing that hasn’t changed is, mistakes are expensive. Don’t be scared, be smart. T/R
Great response. Almost as old as you. I started collecting as a kid. My younger brother did too. Man I was surprised one time when I was about 30 years old and actually counted my firearms. I decided then my next firearm wasn’t actually going to be a firearm, but a safe instead. My brother and I both made mistakes, but thankfully none of them were exceedingly expensive. It’s like anything else, you learn as you go. I keep telling my adult son that when it comes to buying things, he needs to do like Patrick McManus said in some of the stories he wrote, and ‘check behind his ears for signs of moisture’ before ripping his wallet out.
It’s o.k. to walk away from a deal, or wait a little while you do some research. Ask lots of questions. Stay away from the hard sales pitches, and especially the guys who seem like a used car salesmen. (Apologies to any of you who may be into automobile sales) If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Shoot low boys. They're riding Shetland Ponies.
TR said
Manuel said
I will say this as a new collector (young at 38) this site as informed me and scared the hell out of me.Manuel, As a seasoned collector (old at 70), I have learned from my mistakes, but I prefer to learn from someone else before I make the mistake. Every time you have a chance to pickup and examine a gun, do it. You learn from experience, ask questions, and don’t be in a hurry. Nothing sours a new collector more than a mistake. I started collecting before the internet, (gun shows), fill the car with guns, fellow collectors, and drive. Talk about guns all the way there, at the show, and all the why home. Times have changed and now collectors use the “Forum”, the thing that hasn’t changed is, mistakes are expensive. Don’t be scared, be smart. T/R
Oh, ive made a few, luckily not too costly. I wish i could just get in the car and drive to guns show, but in the wonderful commie state of CA, guns shows have almost disappeared. And most of my friends don’t have the passion i do for Winchesters.
Manuel said
I wish i could just get in the car and drive to guns show, but in the wonderful commie state of CA, guns shows have almost disappeared.
But it’s not much better outside of CA, except in a handful of places like Denver, Vegas, Baltimore, which still host top-quality shows. Elsewhere in the country, the overwhelming dominance of black rifles & pure junk makes them not worth the trouble unless you happen to live in the immediate vicinity.
Blame not so much repressive laws, but the internet. Ask any long-time dealer what happened to the collections he used to buy, & I believe every one will say the same thing: on-line auction houses now get the vast majority of them. And I don’t mean the just the major ones like Rock Island & Morphy, but there are now so many smaller ones that it’s hard to keep track of them all. Add to them sites like Gun Broker, etc., where individual owners can sell without buying a table at a show.
Now, some (esp. younger folks who’ve largely been denied the true “gun show experience” as it existed pre-internet) will say “what a wonderful development!, I don’t have to drive or fly all over the country to find what I’m looking for, from the comfort of my living-room I can see what’s available everywhere at once!” This is true, but what you can’t do from the comfort of your living-room is educate yourself the way it was possible to do by picking-up & handing guns at a show, maybe some you never had any prior interest in, & equally important, learning from more knowledgeable collectors–having them point out “what’s wrong” or maybe “what’s right” with a particular gun.
Gun-show friend of mine always used to say “someday the gov’t will ban all shows”; but the gov’t didn’t have to, most of them just deteriorated past the point of being worthwhile for finding collector-quality items.
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