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I have been reading this Forum longer than I have been registered. I see all of the comments about the bad guns being listed somewhere else. I just attended an auction where at least 3 nice 73’s sold in the 4-5K range. There were other Winchesters too but I didn’t look at all of them. What do you guys think about posting information about good guns that the rest may want to look at? Maybe some don’t want their finds to get out in hopes of buying the guns.
Just a thought.
Chuck said
What do you guys think about posting information about good guns that the rest may want to look at? Maybe some don’t want their finds to get out in hopes of buying the guns.
Chuck, it wouldn’t be “some,” it would be everyone who, by his own efforts, had located something he was seriously interested in. The sellers & auctioneers, on the other hand, would LOVE the extra publicity! And I’m sure as hell not talking about myself–I haven’t bought any gun in about 10 yrs (for reasons of age & poverty), & the only auction listings I ever hear about are the ones brought up for discussion here.
As for “friends helping friends,” the best way to do that is by telling your friends directly.
Clarence you are probably right. There is just so many negative comments it would be nice to see something more productive once in awhile.
If one does their homework and then that gets “blown out of the water” by friendly commentary, well, “dirty pool”.
Now, if someone wants to comment AFTER the auction is over, then fair enough.
Although I’m guilty of this in reverse. Pointing out something with problems prior to the auction with a ridiculous pre auction estimate.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Chuck-
Interesting posit… As you point out there are a lot of (typically deserved) negative comments on this site but comparatively few positive ones. A newcomer might well conclude that ALL collectable Winchesters offered for sale are misrepresented fakes and that only a few true experts in a given model have any business trying to buy them. The only guns that tend to draw kudos here are those belonging to (or offered for sale by) longtime members, which reinforces the “exclusive club” perception. It would surely “scare me off” if I were a newcomer to the Association. Maybe that’s the intent, maybe not…
Because of that, I appreciated the generally positive comments today from Bert, Peter, and others about how RIA “got it about right” on a rare M1890 rifle (condition and value). Quite refreshing in a way… RIA must get SOME things right sometimes although we rarely discuss it, and as someone who claims no knowledge outside my area of interest, some positive comments might help me appreciate other Winchester models…
For myself… I have done a bit of both on occasion when it comes to posting on WACA about documentable guns for sale. Specifically, I’ve posted here about genuine M70 Van Orden Snipers appearing in auctions where they were not described as such and might otherwise have gone unnoticed by potentially interested parties.
Mostly, however, I tend to go with Clarence’s approach. If, by some chance, I find what I think is a “good” collectable gun that I do not want myself, I tend to pass the info along to a small circle of friends who do likewise for me. OTOH… If, by some chance, I find a gun (first) that I AM interested in, I’ll ALSO share that information with the same folks b/c in general we have a bit of a mutual “non-aggression pact” (the one who finds it first doesn’t have to compete with the others). Since my list of friends in this regard is quite small, I do not think it negatively impacts the auction house’s revenue stream in any way, but it lets us share information about interesting guns in a non-competitive way…
So, YES, I’d like to hear it when somebody finds a gun out there that’s good (but that they’re not gearing up to go after and hoping no-one else notices). As though it’s actually a meaningful “secret”… 
I’m not likely to be any sort of competition. Just a learning activity…
Best 
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
mrcvs said
Although I’m guilty of this in reverse. Pointing out something with problems prior to the auction with a ridiculous pre auction estimate.
In this case, you’re only “guilty” of preventing someone less observant than yourself from getting screwed; don’t think you need apologize for that.
clarence said
In this case, you’re only “guilty” of preventing someone less observant than yourself from getting screwed; don’t think you need apologize for that.
Exactly! That’s why I present such information. The latest was a problematic 1892 .44-40 carbine. Having said that, 9 times out of 10, the gun I present meets the low end estimate or significantly more. That, unfortunately, tells me many folks do not research that which they purchase and utilize the greatest site available on the internet to research their pursuits, that being this very site.
Louis Luttrell said
Since my list of friends in this regard is quite small, I do not think it negatively impacts the auction house’s revenue stream in any way, but it lets us share information about interesting guns in a non-competitive way…
Lou, none of us, I don’t think!, bears ANY moral obligation whatsoever to worry about auctioneers’ “revenue stream”! Especially when we see them so often dissemble or conceal by omission pertinent info.
I used to love doing gun shows in Alaska with my brother (RIP Paul). We would share tables, and we had, mostly, the same interests. One of us would get stuck watching the tables while the other was free to roam the show. Many times the ‘roamer’ came back with a treasure. But often times one of us would come back and tell the other about an interesting item we found that might be just a little more up the others alley. “Go to such and such table, and check out their…… Those were good days. Gun collecting was way more fun for me back then.
Shoot low boys. They're riding Shetland Ponies.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Clarence-
AMEN TO THAT!!! No… I do not own stock in RIA and I find using auctions sites as a source of potential collectables as challenging as anyone else. I’ve been generally lucky so far, but that may (I think) be b/c I know what questions to ask in advance. Or maybe it’s just been luck??? 
Or maybe I’ve bought a bunch of crap and am not clever enough to have noticed??? Or any/all if the above!!!
I know should avoid this sort of philosophical debate entirely…
I guess my point is that, as a group, on this site we tend to dwell upon the negative (Chuck’s point, I think). YES… It is a public service, and much appreciated, when folks like mrcvs point out problem guns BEFORE an auction. My observation is that we rarely do the opposite (before OR after the sale). As in “Here’s a NICE one” or “This was a GOOD buy for whoever got it”!!! Whether it’s b/c we view collecting solely as a zero sum competitive sport (as mrcvs’ “dirty pool” comment would seem to imply), or simply b/c we’re just a bunch of crotchety old geezers who like to complain, is not clear to me (Speaking only of myself here – PLEASE do not accuse me of defaming anyone by calling them either “crotchety” or a “geezer”… FWIW… Bert can censor me if I’m out of line…)
At the same time, we bemoan what we perceive as the failing “future of our hobby”… We discuss how the collectable Winchester market has either gone flat or is in decline. We’ve had a whole three page thread this week that degenerated into a discussion of misguided State/Federal tax policy… We blame everything on younger generations who grew up on computers and/or plastic guns, and/or politicians/media who attempt to garner votes by vilifying firearms and their owners, etc. If anyone thinks that the soon to be enthroned Pelosi regime will draw a distinction between a M1894 in 30 WCF made in 1897 and one made in 1899, the dream on… Lack of FFL records will not matter when it comes to house-to-house Gestapo searches, and if you can throw away one Bill of Rights Amendment why not just chuck any that are “inconvenient”…
It seems to me that we do not consider how we, ourselves, might impact the future of the hobby (even if our efforts are in vain)… It may not matter, but if I imagine myself as a would-be Winchester collector newbie who comes to this site, what I think I’d come away with is the perception that everything out there is fake, that only “experts” can tell what’s real, that Winchesters are a “bad investment”, and that people who need to ask questions are somehow defective…
So IMHO a few positive (educational) posts (whether before or after the fact) would be refreshing…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 7, 2015
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I have seen a few threads where a member finds an interesting offering and links it for discussion. I may have done it myself, can’t recall. Even if I’m not interested in purchasing the item it can be an interesting case study or it may be just what someone’s looking for.
Mike
Having said that…
There’s so much coming to auction with problems–and RIA seems to have a lot of stuff with problems in that some of what they present looks a lot better than it really is!!!– perhaps we do present stuff that we think is good and, if it passes everyone’s muster, a job well done! If not, we all learn from it. Given there is so much out there, what are the odds will be a specific lot anyone of us is hoping to get cheaply? Maybe better to be educated…
So, I step back from my original from the gut response. It originated from a Smith & Wesson Triple Lock auctioned earlier this year in which it was only mentioned in passing it might be a Target Model, and one could not tell from the photographs that it was. I did my homework and asked for more photographs. Then was informed that they would be posted to the site in 24 hrs. I requested they not be and the auctioneer (Poulin’s) honoured my request. I got it at a bargain basement price.
Even with Winchesters, I rarely purchase anymore, and as prices continue to fall, what’s a bit of education…for everyone?
Thoughts?
Louis Luttrell said
Whether it’s b/c we view collecting solely as a zero sum competitive sport (as mrcvs’ “dirty pool” comment would seem to imply)
Where auctions are concerned, it IS exactly that, like it or not, a zero sum competitive sport! There was a very special Stevens in the record-setting John Dutcher auction of about 15 yrs ago, very special because it had belonged to a once-famous gun-writer & shooter that I, & only I, because he was a personal hero of mine, had researched & written about. If anybody in the world deserved to own that gun, it was me! My years of research & accumulation of obscure bibliographic material counted for nothing when the bids were tabulated.
Anyway, the folks who expose fraudulent or suspicious guns are rendering a valuable public service, & it’s unfair to imply they are simply dwelling on the negative. The straight, “correct” guns don’t need to be boosted–they speak for themselves.
mrcvs said
I requested they not be and the auctioneer (Poulin’s) honoured my request.
Wow, that’s incredible! One has to be very circumspect when asking questions of an ebay seller, because your question & the seller’s response are almost sure to be posted in the listing, which may very well let the cat out of the bag, if you’ve noticed something important most others have missed.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Clarence-
I AGREE that “the folks who expose fraudulent or suspicious guns are rendering a valuable public service”. I AGREE that it would be “unfair to imply they are simply dwelling on the negative”. That’s not what I was doing… PLEASE forgive my lack of clarity and at the same time stop quoting me out of context (like Ms. Pelosi and her colleagues do to earn their daily bread)…
What I was TRYING to convey was that I do not necessarily agree that “The straight, “correct” guns don’t need to be boosted–they speak for themselves”. To YOU (and other “experts”) that is no doubt true. YOU may know a good one from a bad one on sight, but I imagine that lots of potential collectors (the “future of our hobby”) are not at your level of expertise. I know for sure that I am NOT (outside my limited interests).
Part of the reason I follow this site is to LEARN about things outside my area. Hearing mostly about the “bad” does not help me, or IMHO others, learn what’s “good” (since we do not know what “good” is so have a limited frame of reference). Maybe, in the view of some, that means people like me ought to just “go away” b/c we’re not worthy of basking in WACA’s general negativity due to our irretrievable ignorance. Back to the “future of the hobby” thing… In my case it’s OK… I cannot afford to expand my collecting interests, so I can take WACA or leave it… I have my “little circle of friends” (all WACA members BTW…) so garner little here…
But maybe we can, as a group, think about how this site can be positive, as well as negative (more than a “club” forum for “insiders only”). My general rule has been to only respond to queries where I can post useful documentable info and/or pictures. Tonite was a mistake…
I only get into trouble when I indulge in these “philosophical” debates…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
“Future of the Hobby”
That kind of struck a note to me. I’m a grandpa, and recently a great grandpa. I taught my kids to hunt and shoot. Lots of outdoor stuff. (If you haven’t spent years in Alaska, you may not have a clue just how much. LOL) Was a Scout Leader, and also participated in boys groups associated with churches. Seems like that has been going away. (Going away? It’s going extinct.) Get that next generation out there in a tent, even if it’s in the back yard. Enroll your kids and grandkids in programs that support outdoor activities, right up to hunting and fishing. Be a volunteer. Take them shooting.
Shoot low boys. They're riding Shetland Ponies.
November 7, 2015
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Louis Luttrell said
Hi Clarence-(SNIP)
But maybe we can, as a group, think about how this site can be positive, as well as negative (more than a “club” forum for “insiders only”). My general rule has been to only respond to queries where I can post useful documentable info and/or pictures. Tonite was a mistake…
I only get into trouble when I indulge in these “philosophical” debates…
Best,
Lou
Lou-
I respectfully disagree that your well-thought-out post was a mistake. You made some good points and whether I agree or disagree with them matters little, I feel you were trying to accomplish some good for our forum and hobby and that should never be considered a mistake.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Lou-
I respectfully disagree that your well-thought-out post was a mistake. You made some good points and whether I agree or disagree with them matters little, I feel you were trying to accomplish some good for our forum and hobby and that should never be considered a mistake.
Certainly not! I always look forward to Lou’s comments on anything, because I can count on them being not only technically illuminating (just wish I could remember 10% of what he’s taught me about 70s!), but most carefully & logically articulated.
I will say this as a new collector (young at 38) this site as informed me and scared the hell out of me.
I didn’t want anyone to think that pointing out bad guns was a bad thing. I just felt that I see a lot of good guns too and that someone on this site should have been able to take a look and buy them if they were so inclined. Most auctions are advertised on the internet so nothing can really be hidden from others. There are a lot of guys on this site that don’t have 30+ years of collecting Winchesters under their belt. I’d like to see some of them get a good gun every now and then too.
Manual, you shouldn’t be scared. You just need to do your homework before you buy.
I have an old car and the same thing is going on here too. Younger people aren’t interested and crooks abound. You can’t stop time and things always change.
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