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March 31, 2009
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One of my Christmas presents was a 1952 6th addition of the Gun Digest. Almost 100 Winchester Forgotten Cartridges. The majority of the cartridges were not for a Winchester rifle but there are quite a few that are and I have never heard of.
Besides these cartridges this book is over 200 pages of great articles by the likes of Jack O’Connor, Townsend Whelen, J. S. Hatcher, James Grant, Elmer Keith, Herschel Logan, Philip Sharpe, and Paul Foster. For those of you that don’t recognize the name Paul Foster at one time he probably had one of the most inclusive collection of cartridges.
I’m going to look to see if there is an Index for these magazines.
December 9, 2002
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Nice Christmas Present Chuck!
I was told by a very well known, and older gentleman cartridge collector, that Paul Foster, (Winchester Employee), had over a mile long of tables in his cartridge collection.
Anthony
October 29, 2011
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Chuck–Do you have Dan Shuey’s 2 volume set of WRA head stamped cartridges? Do you know if all listed forgotten rounds in his books? Bill
March 31, 2009
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Anthony said
Nice Christmas Present Chuck!
I was told by a very well known, and older gentleman cartridge collector, that Paul Foster, (Winchester Employee), had over a mile long of tables in his cartridge collection.
Anthony
That’s amazing.
March 31, 2009
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426crown said
Chuck–Do you have Dan Shuey’s 2 volume set of WRA head stamped cartridges? Do you know if all listed forgotten rounds in his books? Bill
I do have the books. I will check one out to see if it is in Dan’s books. I doubt that the ones that are not for a Winchester would be in his books.
September 19, 2014
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Chuck and Bill, Remember, Shuey’s book is on HEADSTAMPED cartridges. Many of the “forgotten” cartridges were NOT headstamped as they were investigatory or experimental versions, etc. Thus many/most in the article Chuck is referring to do not appear in Shuey’s book. Tim
March 31, 2009
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I checked out a handful of cartridges. The .46 WCF is in Dan’s book, the 45-75 Milbank is not, the percussion chamber for the 1866 is not, 50-105, 50-100 are, the 32-80 is sort of on page 42 V II, Henry center fire is not. All the cartridges listed also have a picture.
When I get time I plan to go through the entire list.
September 19, 2014
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Chuck, I have looked, I thought, and NOT found the .46/.47 OFW in Dan’s book. It never was headstamped. NOW you’ve tweaked my interests and will look once again! Tim
September 19, 2014
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Say, Chuck–I am missing some deer hunting cover scent. Been looking high and low and not finding it. Care to come here and find it for me? IF it remains until summer, it might get a bit strong! Man, I do miss Robin who seemed able to find what I could not. Tim
September 19, 2014
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Chuck, I conflated the .46 WCF with the .46/.47 OFW cartridge. I do see the .46 WCF experimental for the model 1886 in Dan’s book. But not the .46 OFW cartridge for the model 1868.
December 30, 2011
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Here’s the 46 WCF and the card mentioned in Dan’s Vol.II book:
Interesting subject. After I started looking, I also couldn’t find mention of a 45-70-300 Express bullet load in his book, or the cartridge box book, but found two mentions of it in the records. Maybe I’m just not seeing it in the books. The one card is undated, but I believe it is later than the note from John Gardner that Dan had asked me to scan for him. Maybe it’s another load that wasn’t so common.
May 23, 2009
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Here are pics of the .46WCF cartridge, certainly interesting indeed. Not many .46 calibers out there in the world.
Brad Dunbar said
Here’s the 46 WCF and the card mentioned in Dan’s Vol.II book:Interesting subject. After I started looking, I also couldn’t find mention of a 45-70-300 Express bullet load in his book, or the cartridge box book, but found two mentions of it in the records. Maybe I’m just not seeing it in the books. The one card is undated, but I believe it is later than the note from John Gardner that Dan had asked me to scan for him. Maybe it’s another load that wasn’t so common.
What year is the John Gardner note dated or from?
There are some boxes of 45-70 Winchester High Velocity Soft Point shown that have a 300 grain bullet on page 145 of the Giles & Shuey Book. I wonder if the Note is a precursor to the 45-70WHV, or if they are somehow the same cartridge. Usually I take Express to mean a hollow pointed bullet with express tube inserted in them, but not all Express calibers had such bullets. Apparently only certain calibers did.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
December 9, 2002
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tim tomlinson said
Chuck, I conflated the .46 WCF with the .46/.47 OFW cartridge. I do see the .46 WCF experimental for the model 1886 in Dan’s book. But not the .46 OFW cartridge for the model 1868.
Tim,
The .46 O.F.W. Experimental Cartridge for the 1868 Musket, was definitely an interesting cartridge. Here’s a picture of the actual Experimental Cartridge, also previously owned by, Paul Foster. Patent issued to Oliver F. Winchester, #60,814, O.F.W. cartridge, issued on January, 1, 1867.
We can see the double cane-lure on the lead bullet, but not sure of the weight of the lead.(according to the published information provide by Maverick above, in Paul Fosters article, the bullet is 325 grains). A black powder cartridge, with a copper case, with a dished out base, as being primed internally, or “inside primed”. No head stamp on the base.
It looks like this is the cartridge, that I posted pictures of, is on the left, that Maverick so kindly posted.
Anthony
December 9, 2002
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Maverick said
Here are pics of the .46WCF cartridge, certainly interesting indeed. Not many .46 calibers out there in the world.Brad Dunbar said
Here’s the 46 WCF and the card mentioned in Dan’s Vol.II book:
Interesting subject. After I started looking, I also couldn’t find mention of a 45-70-300 Express bullet load in his book, or the cartridge box book, but found two mentions of it in the records. Maybe I’m just not seeing it in the books. The one card is undated, but I believe it is later than the note from John Gardner that Dan had asked me to scan for him. Maybe it’s another load that wasn’t so common.
What year is the John Gardner note dated or from?
There are some boxes of 45-70 Winchester High Velocity Soft Point shown that have a 300 grain bullet on page 145 of the Giles & Shuey Book. I wonder if the Note is a precursor to the 45-70WHV, or if they are somehow the same cartridge. Usually I take Express to mean a hollow pointed bullet with express tube inserted in them, but not all Express calibers had such bullets. Apparently only certain calibers did.
I take it this is the Paul Foster article being referred to?
Sincerely,
Maverick
Brady,
This was in my notes.
https://www.cartridgecollector.net/cartridge/46-winchester-center-fire/
Tony
December 30, 2011
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Maverick said
What year is the John Gardner note dated or from?
Hi Brady
I believe it’s Sept. 4, 1901.
May 23, 2009
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Brad Dunbar said
Maverick said
What year is the John Gardner note dated or from?
Hi Brady
I believe it’s Sept. 4, 1901.
Per Shuey & Giles’s Book they introduced the Winchester High Velocity rounds in 1903. So I’m guessing this special order may have been just slightly before and was possibly early experimental type order for the 45-70 WHV round. Very interesting note.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
March 31, 2009
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I started building a spread sheet for the Forgotten Cartridges. There are some that aren’t in Shuey’s book because they are rim fires. A larger group aren’t in his book because they were not for a Winchester rifle. But some non Winchesters are.
Many of the Winchester experimental cartridges are in Dan’s book. I don’t see the .45-75 Milbank primer, .50-38, .50-40, .56-42, .56-45, Henry .44 center fire or the .32-80 in Dan’s book.
This article is over 70 years old and does not have all of the Winchester experimental cartridges in it. Also some of the data is not really correct. Some of his forgotten cartridges are not really forgotten now days.
I need to spend a lot more time with this. If you find some that I am missing let me know the page they are on in Dan’s book.
This Forum won’t let me post the list as an Excel or Word Doc. I don’t have an account with Adobe.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
This Forum won’t let me post the list as an Excel or Word Doc. I don’t have an account with Adobe.
Sure it will… you just need to know how to do it. I do it frequently.
This is an example of an Excel Spreadsheet file (converted to .jpg) and then posted..
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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OK, how do I do it? When I try I click the down arrow that shows all the different formats but JPG is not one of them.
March 31, 2009
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Brad Dunbar said
Here’s the 46 WCF and the card mentioned in Dan’s Vol.II book:Interesting subject. After I started looking, I also couldn’t find mention of a 45-70-300 Express bullet load in his book, or the cartridge box book, but found two mentions of it in the records. Maybe I’m just not seeing it in the books. The one card is undated, but I believe it is later than the note from John Gardner that Dan had asked me to scan for him. Maybe it’s another load that wasn’t so common.
The 45-70-300 EX is not on the Forgotten list. We need to start a list of all the experimental and rare Winchester cartridges. The more I look the more confused I get.
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