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C&R Renewal question
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June 23, 2022 - 2:15 am
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Just completed my C&R renewal form, one question struck me as odd. It asked if I sold or planned to sell on the Internet and if so, which site(s). I’m not sure if they were taking a poll or some other purpose. I simply don’t have the skill set or the need to sell on the ‘net but some purchases have involved the Internet. 

Thoughts?

 

Mike

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June 23, 2022 - 2:43 am
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  Mike, “some other purpose” T/R

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June 23, 2022 - 3:14 am
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I think they trying to find out if your in the the business of selling guns and should have a FFL.

Bob

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June 23, 2022 - 3:15 am
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TR said
  Mike, “some other purpose” T/R

  

Considering the renewal form content was constructed by persons well up the BATFE food chain I tend to agree. Quite honestly I think many of the Internet sellers deserve a bit of scrutiny as many are in fact dealers even though they are not licensed. BATFE surely rcognizes that. I seldom use my C&R but it has been helpful a few times, I wish I had gotten it sooner. I have no delusions of staying off Uncle Sugar’s RADAR so I use the process to my advantage as it facilitates sales across state lines. Like nearly all C&R holders I keep very good records and have no interest in illegal activities. I sincerely believe BATFE trusts C&R holders and focuses their enforcement efforts on actors who actually endanger the public. Obviously, C&R collectors don’t. Yes, I’ve dealt with ATF agents who were total jerks and who had no idea what they were doing. I’ve run into that in every profession. 

 

Mike

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June 23, 2022 - 3:58 am
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TXGunNut said I sincerely believe BATFE trusts C&R holders and focuses their enforcement efforts on actors who actually endanger the public.
 

Mike,  If you believe that, waste no time in reading p. 19 of the July Rifleman, & then ask yourself whether you think Pig Eye’s newest candidate for Director of ATF deserves your trust.  I hope you haven’t forgotten that his previous candidate for the position was such a blatant anti-gun zealot that even Senate Dems refused to confirm him!  The new candidate wasn’t previously on Bloomberg’s payroll as the previous one had been, but he is no friend of yours, mine, or any other C&R holder.

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June 23, 2022 - 9:42 am
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I’m not certain what happened yesterday in the senate debates but language in the newest bill tried to define who requires an FFL and one of the criteria was selling a (one) gun for profit…  I think they’re data mining.

Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....

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June 23, 2022 - 1:03 pm
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rwsem said
I’m not certain what happened yesterday in the senate debates but language in the newest bill tried to define who requires an FFL and one of the criteria was selling a (one) gun for profit…  I think they’re data mining.

  

What “newest bill” was that?  I missed that if it was reported on the evening TV news, because I can’t bear to watch any more of the House Dem’s unending dog & pony show purporting to prove an “insurrection” occurred.  (Poor Liz Cheney…knowing she’s thrown away her chance for re-election, she has to make the most of the time she has left, before accepting a senior position with MSNBC or some similar org.)  I’m inclined to believe this proposal will go no where, because enforcement of it would overwhelm ATF.

But another proposal (ATF 2021R-05), requiring no Congressional approval because it would be merely a change in ATF regs, requires FFL holders to place a ser. no. (what no.? where? how?) on all unserialized firearms that come into their possession, like Model 69s & many others, that were never serialized by the Winchester factory. 

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June 23, 2022 - 2:35 pm
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It’s the same questions on the regular FFL form.  

I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder

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June 23, 2022 - 3:47 pm
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rwsem said
I’m not certain what happened yesterday in the senate debates but language in the newest bill tried to define who requires an FFL and one of the criteria was selling a (one) gun for profit…  I think they’re data mining.

  

If this is what you’re talking about, it would mean the end of sales by private collectors at gun shows: 

From Yahoo News:  “The legislation would also require more sellers to register as “Federally Licensed Firearm Dealers,” including anyone who sells guns to “predominantly earn a profit.” These sellers would in turn be required to run background checks on potential buyers and keep records of the sales.”  Of course, nobody “registers” as an FFL, they APPLY, then prepare themselves for a long ordeal of paperwork.

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June 24, 2022 - 9:43 am
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Clarence, that’s it….  I just haven’t pulled the actual language for the bill and read it myself and the related amended US Code…  I’ll read it this weekend; weekdays are full of work…

OLL22581 (senate.gov)

Ron

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June 24, 2022 - 2:16 pm
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rwsem said
 I’ll read it this weekend; weekdays are full of work…

 

Ron, while you’re at it, read the brilliant decision of Justice Thomas (my hero!) in the New York gun-law smack-down that has every gun-hater in the country foaming at the mouth & apoplectic with rage.  “The 2nd A. is not a second-class right.”

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June 24, 2022 - 3:39 pm
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I’ll just need to remember that my purpose for selling is to improve my collection…

SEC. 12002. DEFINING ‘‘ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS’’.
20 Section 921 of title 18, United States Code, is
21 amended—
22 (1) in paragraph (21)(C), by striking ‘‘with the
23 principal objective of livelihood and profit’’ and in-
24 serting ‘‘to predominantly earn a profit’’;

OLL22581 7GY Discussion Draft S.L.C. 32
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
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(2) by redesignating paragraphs (22) through (29) as paragraphs (23) through (30), respectively; and
(3) by inserting after paragraph (21) the fol- lowing:
‘‘(22) The term ‘to predominantly earn a profit’ means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposi- tion of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. ‘‘(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.’’.

Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....

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June 24, 2022 - 4:07 pm
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rwsem said
I’ll just need to remember that my purpose for selling is to improve my collection…

‘‘(22) The term ‘to predominantly earn a profit’ means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposi- tion of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. ‘‘(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.’’.
  

This last paragraph suggests it should not be an obstacle to legit collectors.  If it knocks out a lot of the unlicensed Gunbroker sellers who are merely trading guns because it’s easier & more profitable than some other racket they might otherwise be pursuing, I say good riddance

More alarming to me than this provision is the un-serialized gun requirement that could mess up a lot of collector guns like Model 67s & 69s.  I’d put this in the category of “chickens coming home to roost,” because it was only to save a few cents per gun that the factory skipped this step in the ordinary manufacturing process.  A gun not worth the trouble of being serialized shouldn’t be wearing the Winchester name.

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June 24, 2022 - 4:30 pm
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rwsem said
I’ll just need to remember that my purpose for selling is to improve my collection…

 

That’s almost exactly my goal; my collecting activities are intended to improve my collection and help me learn about various models of firearms. As a business owner with some formal education in business I know my firearms transactions will never produce income for me. Lately I’m buying more books than firearms but that’s consistent with my goal. 

 

Mike

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June 24, 2022 - 4:54 pm
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TXGunNut said

Lately I’m buying more books than firearms but that’s consistent with my goal. 

 

Mike

  

The smartest thing you could do, esp. if you aren’t confining yourself narrowly to “collector” gun books, which may allow you to ascertain whether the knurling on the hammer spur is correct, but tell you little about the place of the gun in American history.  The larger view will be found in works like Whelen’s American Rifle, & his other books, Sharpe’s Riflle in America, Gould’s Modern American Rifles, Roosevelt’s Wilderness Hunter, Crossman’s Military & Sporting Rifle Shooting, & several hundred others I could name because they’re sitting in my book case.

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June 24, 2022 - 4:57 pm
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Here in Ca. if you wanted a C&R you have to get a Federal and a State C&R.  It’s just another Ca. money grab.  This is one reason why I collect antiques.  I rarely sell but do buy new guns occasionally.  Because of other Ca. laws a lot of people are not renewing their C&R’s. 

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June 24, 2022 - 7:13 pm
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Chuck said
Here in Ca. if you wanted a C&R you have to get a Federal and a State C&R.  It’s just another Ca. money grab.

  

Chuck, I believe it’s less about the money than the never-ending passion of all the gun-haters to hurt, cripple, handicap gun-owners in any & every way they can…they never give up trying!  Or rather, lawful gun-owners, because for criminals, gang-bangers, etc. they have nothing but sympathy. One of the proudest achievements of arch-gun-hater Gov. Cuomo (before he was forced to resign in disgrace) was the “no-bail” law he rammed through the state legislature.  So now drug-dealers & burglars ply their trades without fear of arrest.

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