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November 7, 2015
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Was picking up a few cases of shotgun shells tonight and a very nice 95% 1894 carbine in 32WS caught my eye. Hang tag said it was made in 1960; same year I was born! Since I know they use the Madis book for dating I double checked it against the PRB data on the WACA site. 1961. Bummer. I have a really nice CA 1957 (?) 1894 in 32WS so I don’t need this rifle to fill a hole. Gun looks almost new. They had a nice 90% 1941 vintage carbine in 32WS as well but it had some annoying scratches on the receiver.
Funny thing, the guy I was dealing with was born in 1941 (and a WACA member). Does anyone else think they need a Winchester “born” the same year they were? I do numbers for a living and deal with manufacture dates many times a day so maybe my interest is a little odd. Guess I’ll dig out my other late 94 in 32WS and decide if the ’61 would be an upgrade.
Couple years ago, at the Reno show, I was looking for a nice “shortwood” to fill a hole in my collection. Most I found were $850+, so I waited until the last day of the show. Everyone was packing up and my buddy told me there was a nice one on a table close to ours. I went over and took a look. He too was packing up, but the carbine was still on the table. $850 price tag. Looked in my wallet and I had $800 and had a 500 mile drive home. We negotiated for a few minutes and I bought # 2,407,205 for $750. The carbine is unfired and dates to 1960. I was happy and still had $50 to get home on. I too like buying birth year guns. I lettered my 1947 K22 and it was shipped 9-23-1947. My exact 5th birthday. I also have a beautiful 1942 vintage M94. Big Larry
November 7, 2015
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I dunno, it’s eating on me. I don’t have to buy every really nice 94 that I see but it will be awhile before I see another one this nice. Not a mark on the bolt face-or much of anywhere else. I have a 30WCF and 32SPL of similar vintage in 95-98% condition but I like this gun. Action is very tight but not as slick as similar guns. Guns of this era didn’t represent Winchester’s best efforts, IMHO. Will probably pass on this one.
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TXGunNut said
Was picking up a few cases of shotgun shells tonight and a very nice 95% 1894 carbine in 32WS caught my eye. Hang tag said it was made in 1960; same year I was born! Since I know they use the Madis book for dating I double checked it against the PRB data on the WACA site. 1961. Bummer. I have a really nice CA 1957 (?) 1894 in 32WS so I don’t need this rifle to fill a hole. Gun looks almost new. They had a nice 90% 1941 vintage carbine in 32WS as well but it had some annoying scratches on the receiver.Funny thing, the guy I was dealing with was born in 1941 (and a WACA member). Does anyone else think they need a Winchester “born” the same year they were? I do numbers for a living and deal with manufacture dates many times a day so maybe my interest is a little odd. Guess I’ll dig out my other late 94 in 32WS and decide if the ’61 would be an upgrade.
TX,
Just so you know this. There are no polishing room data for Model 94’s after 1945. The end of year serial numbers are estimates and that rifle may certainly have been manufactured during 1960. For the years 1954 through 1958 the DOM information assumes 55,500 rifles were made in each of those years. In 1959 and 1960 the estimate is 65500 each and in 1961 it is 56500, 1962 it is 54500, and in 1963 it is 36000. Not exactly real accurate compared to when actual data exists. The last SN for 1959 is estimated to be 2388000 and the last SN for 1960 it is 2453500.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
TX,
Just so you know this. There is no polishing room data for Model 94’s after 1945. The end of year serial numbers are estimates and that rifle may certainly have been manufactured during 1960. For the years 1954 through 1958 the DOM information assumes 55,500 rifles were made in each of those years. In 1959 and 1960 the estimate is 65500 each and in 1961 it is 56500, 1962 it is 54500, and in 1963 it is 36000. Not exactly real accurate compared to when actual data exists. The last SN for 1959 is estimated to be 2388000 and the last SN for 1960 it is 2453500.
Michael
Michael,
Actually, there are polishing room records for the Model 94 beyond the year 1945, but it is not the CFM that has them… instead, Pauline Muerrle has them. It is my understanding that she has the original records up through at least the mid 1960s. A number of WACA members have obtained DOMs from her on the post 1945 production guns. Based on my ongoing survey, I have revised several of the year ending serial numbers, and will continue to do so as new information is obtained.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
It’s a shame that those records remain in private hands. In my opinion, they should be donated to CFM and preserved for the benefit of the entire collecting community. Hopefully that will happen someday.
deerhunter said
It’s a shame that those records remain in private hands. In my opinion, they should be donated to CFM and preserved for the benefit of the entire collecting community. Hopefully that will happen someday.
If it weren’t for the “private hands” they would have been lost forever since most were rescued from the trash bin. Donating them to the CFM means that you are just paying them for the research instead of Pauline Muerrle. She has made the searches available to the entire collecting community on her website just like the CFM, and at a lower cost. http://www.paulinemuerrle.com/services.htm
The only real difference I see is the availability of the documents to researchers. THAT would be a huge benefit to those of us trying to document the history of Winchester rifle technical details for posterity before they are lost.
Best Regards,
.
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Bert H. said
Michael,
Actually, there are polishing room records for the Model 94 beyond the year 1945, but it is not the CFM that has them… instead, Pauline Muerrle has them. It is my understanding that she has the original records up through at least the mid 1960s. A number of WACA members have obtained DOMs from her on the post 1945 production guns. Based on my ongoing survey, I have revised several of the year ending serial numbers, and will continue to do so as new information is obtained.
Bert
Bert,
1945 to mid-1960 is approximately 20 yrs. Even at Pauline’s full rate of $15 for each search it would be worth paying that to get the ending serial number for those years we don’t have. It would be less than $300 total (which she may even discount). I would certainly contribute to a fund to further that research.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
I would be glad to do the same, for the current and future generations.
Perhaps the WACA Board should consider it too.
JWA said
deerhunter said
It’s a shame that those records remain in private hands. In my opinion, they should be donated to CFM and preserved for the benefit of the entire collecting community. Hopefully that will happen someday.
If it weren’t for the “private hands” they would have been lost forever since most were rescued from the trash bin. Donating them to the CFM means that you are just paying them for the research instead of Pauline Muerrle. She has made the searches available to the entire collecting community on her website just like the CFM, and at a lower cost. http://www.paulinemuerrle.com/services.htm
The only real difference I see is the availability of the documents to researchers. THAT would be a huge benefit to those of us trying to document the history of Winchester rifle technical details for posterity before they are lost.
Best Regards,
.
I am in total agreement with you JWA. Pauline had worked extremely hard to research, find, obtain, and dumpster dive for data which otherwise would have been long lost. It is hers to do with as she pleases and she most graciously will give out individual DOM info for a very nominal fee. And certainly cheaper than CFM. I have spoke and corresponded with Pauline numerous times and she has been nothing but helpful in aiding my research o nthe Mode l1892 rifles.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
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Well, went back for another look. For the record the SN is 2465510 which probably makes it an early 1961 at the earliest. Bottom line the fit & finish on this 94 was pretty poor, if I had to give it a letter grade it would be a C-. When viewed from the top the fore end lines were not symmetrical and the receiver had quite a few vertical lines under the blue. Action a bit tight & balky but It could just be dry or grease could be getting hard, I don’t know. It’s probably a 98% gun, pretty sure that was factory grease on the bolt face. Absolutely no wear on the high spots/edges of the receiver or anywhere else.
Bottom line, it didn’t reach out and grab me so I walked away from it again. The 1941 vintage 94 from the same collection was still there and it’s a very nice gun. The scratches and dents from a bit of careless handing mar an otherwise high condition gun. Those scratches wouldn’t bother me much on an 80% gun but they turn me off on a gun as nice as this one.
Like the Library manager said, they’ll probably still be there when I get back from Cody. I hate to walk away from a like-new 94 but I have more than a few nice 1894’s and I really don’t want a gun that I probably shouldn’t shoot.
Pauline Muerrle is pretty high on my list also. I got a letter from her on a 1937 Winchester 62A that was certainly not available anywhere else. Peter
PS: And I don’t think Pauline should be asked to donate her records to Cody or anyone else anymore than you should be asked to donate your favorite, and very rare Winchester rifle to them. If someone wants them, I’m sure there is a price she would part with them for. Just my opinion. Peter
November 7, 2015
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Seems to me we all owe Ms. Muerrle a debt of gratitude. So many records that we would consider extremely valuable today were destroyed or lost by the short-sighted folks in charge at the time. To be fair archival storage is a general pain in the backside but Ms. Muerrle had the foresight to preserve the records she could. On top of that I’d bet she’s forgotten more about engraving than most of us will ever know.
TXGunNut said
Seems to me we all owe Ms. Muerrle a debt of gratitude. So many records that we would consider extremely valuable today were destroyed or lost by the short-sighted folks in charge at the time. To be fair archival storage is a general pain in the backside but Ms. Muerrle had the foresight to preserve the records she could. On top of that I’d bet she’s forgotten more about engraving than most of us will ever know.
I certainly agree. The lady is #1 in my book. She has been of help to me on more than one occasion. FWIW, she supposedly has PR dates for the later M52 series not covered by the book. Big Larry
November 7, 2015
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Walked away from a few interesting ones this weekend, one was a takedown 1886 in 33WCF. If it had been in any other chambering or in better condition I would have been much more interested but it has other issues as well. Bottom line, I’ll have much better opportunities in Cody.
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