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Doesn’t it seem strange that, considering the appearance of the 44 Winchester in 1873, when Smith & Wesson lengthened the 44 Russian case to create the 44 Special for their 1908 New Century revolver, they chose to only approximate the 44 Winchester, despite the substantially increased powder space created by the change to smokeless powder?
The principal officers at Smith & Wesson had not fallen off a farm wagon and were certainly competitive. Was there a documented reason?
My guess would be they were not completely confident in the strength of their Triple Lock pistol with the metal chemistry science of the time. While that (lack of scientific knowledge) certainly didn’t stop Elmer Keith — he blew up revolvers to learn their limits, he wasn’t running a company concerned about its reputation. Colt’s would have paid big money for a photo of a triple Lock cylinder missing several sections of chamber wall and the top strap pointing to where they probably went.
Published specs in revolvers, 200 grain bullet:
44 winchester muzzle velocity 850 fps
44 Special muzzle velocity 870 fps, muzzle energy 336 fp
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
Doesn’t it seem strange that, considering the appearance of the 44 Winchester in 1873, when Smith & Wesson lengthened the 44 Russian case to create the 44 Special for their 1908 New Century revolver, they chose to only approximate the 44 Winchester, despite
Published specs in revolvers, 200 grain bullet:
44 winchester muzzle velocity 850 fps
44 Special muzzle velocity 870 fps, muzzle energy 336 fp
Absolutely, however…one thing to consider is that this is an example of the separation of a rifle cartridge from a pistol cartridge. That 44 Special is one accurate cartridge!!!
However, my experience is that I got a bit more velocity out of the 44-40 revolver load with 36gr of FFg BP. I thought, may have to check…was 950fps. Same as my Reloder 7 rifle loads at 300 yards impact velocity.
Ah yes, clear ballistics gel test with 7″ revolver
200gr Lyman 42499 50/1 mix, NASA lube (John Kort’s casts)
36gr Swiss FFg, 970fps and 17.5″ penetration
Rifle tests
To be clear, John Kort sent me these cast bullets and requested I test them for him with 36gr of Swiss FFg in both rifle and revolver.
Bryan, Concur the Winchester round in a 7.5″ barrel SAA can deliver 1000 fps with a 200 grain bullet, without undue pressures, easily making it superior for its probable purpose to the factory Special. The problem with both rounds for the longest time was Colt’s inability to control chamber throat dimensions.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Doesn’t it seem strange that, considering the appearance of the 44 Winchester in 1873, when Smith & Wesson lengthened the 44 Russian case to create the 44 Special for their 1908 New Century revolver, they chose to only approximate the 44 Winchester, despite the substantially increased powder space created by the change to smokeless powder?The principal officers at Smith & Wesson had not fallen off a farm wagon and were certainly competitive. Was there a documented reason?
My guess would be they were not completely confident in the strength of their Triple Lock pistol with the metal chemistry science of the time. While that (lack of scientific knowledge) certainly didn’t stop Elmer Keith — he blew up revolvers to learn their limits, he wasn’t running a company concerned about its reputation. Colt’s would have paid big money for a photo of a triple Lock cylinder missing several sections of chamber wall and the top strap pointing to where they probably went.
Published specs in revolvers, 200 grain bullet:
44 winchester muzzle velocity 850 fps
44 Special muzzle velocity 870 fps, muzzle energy 336 fp
And here’s one for graphic purposes, .44 Smith & Wesson Special, Target Model, 7 1/2” barrel.
Zebulon said
The problem with both rounds for the longest time was Colt’s inability to control chamber throat dimensions.
Much the same with the bore….some 44 W.C.F. bores in both the 73’s and 92’s were as small as .4225″
Also note the 7 1/2″ groups at 200 yards using #4 American Powder
Jeremy P said
That landscape and area looks awesome…jungle lush!
Thanks for joining in Jeremy2295!
It sure is this year with all the rain. Just past the field, into the almost virgin timber (the back 300 acres), it looks even more different…a bit more clear. The fields, what I call the front 100 acres, use to be an apple orchard many years ago. I think apple cyder was a big deal here many many years ago.
Zebulon said
The difference was their lives often depended on their hardware. We don’t think of the Krag as a long range cartridge but it sure was, compared to the pistol cartridge carbines of the day.I’m not prejudiced and the 44 WCF wasn’t– still isn’t — a pop gun, but a good marksman lying prone in the desert with either of the Winchester or Krag smokeless thirty caliber rifles rested on anything handy, would be deadly dangerous to a standing or mounted foe at 300 yards. That’s a game changer worth sacrificing maybe a year’s worth of third whiskeys and several hours entertainment at Madam Fifi’s place.
We’re not talking about ethical high lung shots at a meat animal. 170 to 200 grains of softnose lead still carrying over a thousand foot pounds of energy to the bread basket, cojones, or a knee would solve the problem, suddenly or eventually.
Here is another great piece in the Hunter, Trader, Trapper October, 1922
a small bore crank in a way As my first hunting was done with a Win 44 40 and later a 45 60 did not seem too heavy Recently I used the 30 US model 95 Winchester and my remodeled Krag model 1898 neither of which can be beat for big game I always will use them as they bring home the bacon Also I have a 30 30 Win chester which is fine for the use it was intended for i e game up to and including deer But for black and brown bear and moose I pin my faith on my Krag Sporter or Model 1895 20 U SA caliber Winchester both of which will kill knock down to stay down and save not to have game crawl away wounded and die in some swamp supplying forage for timber wolves For a sidearm I use a Colt New Service 44 40 Caliber which is plenty good enough for me. ~Old Timer Indiana
Bryan Austin said
Jeremy P said
That landscape and area looks awesome…jungle lush!
Thanks for joining in Jeremy2295!
It sure is this year with all the rain. Just past the field, into the almost virgin timber (the back 300 acres), it looks even more different…a bit more clear. The fields, what I call the front 100 acres, use to be an apple orchard many years ago. I think apple cyder was a big deal here many many years ago.
The YouTube commenter JeremyPxxxx is not me, just another so named person lol just FYI in case they ever say something crazy.
Yeah I hope to have some property like this in a few years so I can shoot with some freedom !
There you have it! A voice from the past telling us how it was.
Your stills and videos remind me not every shot in the Appalachian mountains is a short one. And I have to ask, are all those vines and ground cover Kudzu? Looks like serious bear habitat.
I have some claim on the Department of the Cumberland as a place of my ancestors, one of whom was a missionary there in the eighteen thirties, met and married my great-great grandmother there and took her to Mississippi.
There’s something about that scoped Model 92 that makes me think of “blockade” whiskey made in high places, not sure why. But if I were running blockade in a lonesome thicket and socially shy, I could see such a thing leaned against my woodpile, close to hand. In case a fat young spike buck wandered by or I was bothered by….varmints.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
There you have it! A voice from the past telling us how it was.Your stills and videos remind me not every shot in the Appalachian mountains is a short one. And I have to ask, are all those vines and ground cover Kudzu? Looks like serious bear habitat.
I have some claim on the Department of the Cumberland as a place of my ancestors, one of whom was a missionary there in the eighteen thirties, met and married my great-great grandmother there and took her to Mississippi.
There’s something about that scoped Model 92 that makes me think of “blockade” whiskey made in high places, not sure why. But if I were running blockade in a lonesome thicket and socially shy, I could see such a thing leaned against my woodpile, close to hand. In case a fat young spike buck wandered by or I was bothered by….varmints.
Heheheheeh, yes indeed!! Kudzu was used as they cut ye’ole slopes. First time I saw kudzu was in Columbus, Ga. This property has a few acres of it…mainly by the house, down the side of the creek, as seen in the videos, and into the fields. The rest of the 400 acres is flawless…cept for the Helene damage.
The 44 W.C.F. is one of my favourite cartridges for nostalgic reasons. I’ve taken two Whitetail deer with that cartridge, one with an original Winchester 1873 and the other with an original Winchester Model 53. Presently, I have a different original Winchester 1873 chambered in 44 W.C.F., as well as an original Winchester Model 1892 SRC in 44 W.C.F. I just feel restless without one or two 44-40’s in my very modest collection.
Kirk, I think the only collections that are truly modest are those that dissatisfy their owner. It sounds to me like you have full measure and overflowing. Tell us some more about the two deer. Given your experience in the field with the round, would you try for a standing buck at a hundred yards? That is, what do you think a sporting maximum range would be, assuming a rifle, not a handgun?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
And for those of us not from the South.and are unfamiliar with Kudzu, it is a perfect example of the First Law of Science: All scientists are blind.
Kudzu was thought to be the remedy for soil erosion caused by a variety of agricultural abuses, overplanting King Cotton being a bad one, albeit done through ignorance.
Kudzu is an Asian vine that is voracious and aggressive. Will it stop hillside erosion? In a New York minute. It will also eat your house and your tractor and any slow moving children. It will wipe out ancient stands of hardwood by smothering the trees and commit many other serious ecological sins.
Oops. Nothing daunted, our government funded Einsteins came up with the solution: import lots of Nutria to eat the Kudzu. Problem solved?
Nutria are pests that will eat many things -‘– except Kudzu. They will.starve before eating Kudzu.
Roundup has made considerable headway with Kudzu but not even my Cajun buddies will eat a Nutria and their hides are too fragile to interest the fur industry. In Florida, maybe the Rock pythons and the “rare” alligators can help. Once they’ve wiped out the deer population.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Bryan Austin said
LOL, figures! I had a 50/50 chance!
I saw that comment on the YT video and thought, “hey, who the hell is this guy?!” 🙂
Bryan Austin said
Zebulon said
The problem with both rounds for the longest time was Colt’s inability to control chamber throat dimensions.
Much the same with the bore….some 44 W.C.F. bores in both the 73’s and 92’s were as small as .4225″
This has been a very interesting and educational thread. The above comment about some bore sizes as small as .4225 in some 73’s and 92’s – I had no idea. I often think about bore sizes in .44-40 rifles running large – as large as .436. Never was aware they could go so far in the other direction. Very helpful to know.
The “slug your bore!” rings even louder.
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