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Just wondering…is ATF and Govt agencies still using the old Madis info to calculate DOM’s on Winchesters?
Eagle said
Just wondering…is ATF and Govt agencies still using the old Madis info to calculate DOM’s on Winchesters?
I am not sure if they ever did? Some will argue they did. The bottom line is regardless of what any list says if it was manufactured after 1898 it is a MODERN gun.. Some dealers will use Madis’ list to sell a modern gun and always with no letter. Be especially careful on the 1892 and 1894’s. Winchester records and Bert’s list are the only ones I trust. Look in the Rules and Facts Forum for Bert’s list.
Hello and thanks for the reply Chuck. I understand Bert’s list, as his list comes from the old Winchester Polishing Room Records that are housed at Cody, but not sure what you mean by “Winchester Records”. I will assume you mean the Winchester records as referenced above and NOT any records that the Winchester Factory of today might give out. There is still a rather high % of sellers that use the old Madis records which are obviously incorrect, verses the Cody housed records. I was recently told by a dealer that he uses the Madis records because ATF told him that is what they used. Peter
PS: Not trying to start a war here either fellas
Eagle,
Appreciate your comment about not trying to start a war. I will add my totally unprofessional observations and likely only roil the waters further.
First, I have observed 1894’s (mostly) being offered as “antique” when factory letters show they are not. The auction house or individual seller is using the Madis list as they then can potentially garner a premium for the sale. Then the rifle will also be handled and shipped as an antique.
Secondly, I, too, was informed by an ATF agent in past years the ATF used the Madis listing as at that time that was all they had. Since then, of course, the polishing room records were found and others often have factory letters from Cody with the date the rifle entered the warehouse, etc. Thus the conundrum of what the ATF uses. Me–I suspect they will use both at various times, depending on the agent, the office, the circumstances and just how tight they wish to be. As such I would not try shipping nor handling a rifle made in 1899 or newer as an “antique” even if it appeared at one time to be such per the Madis listing. I still marvel at the obvious effort to be “mistaken” by the auction house/private seller for the potential bonus of “antique” status. And that happens when they sometimes have a copy of the factory letter on hand showing the date it entered the warehouse! Should a court case ever arise I am fully confident the actual, researched date the serial number was applied would be the determining factor! Thus at this point in time, I would only use the factory records that are housed at Cody and the polishing room records. Let the “other guy” be the one to use the Madis list if he is so moved, just don’t pay the premium as an antique nor try shipping it 
when you know better.
Tim
Eagle said
Hello and thanks for the reply Chuck. I understand Bert’s list, as his list comes from the old Winchester Polishing Room Records that are housed at Cody, but not sure what you mean by “Winchester Records”. I will assume you mean the Winchester records as referenced above and NOT any records that the Winchester Factory of today might give out. There is still a rather high % of sellers that use the old Madis records which are obviously incorrect, verses the Cody housed records. I was recently told by a dealer that he uses the Madis records because ATF told him that is what they used. PeterPS: Not trying to start a war here either fellas
Peter,
Any dealer who states that the “ATF told him that is what they used” is not telling you the truth. The BATF will use the information found in the original Winchester records held by CFM Records office when they are prosecuting any criminal offense involving an old Winchester firearm. They do not refer to a book written by an old time Winchester collector/dealer, or random information found on the internet. When prosecuting a case, they will use a verifiable source document. To do otherwise would result in legal malfeasance issues on their part, case dismissals, and probable counter lawsuits. The “dealers” who claim they have spoken to the BATF are B.S.’ing you!
Several years ago, I had a cordial conversation with a BATF Special Agent (high up it their Arizona office), and he was fully aware of the information & records available at the Cody Museum. He contacted me (via email) asking to speak with me about the list I had complied and published. When we spoke, he simply wanted to know what the source of my information was. At the end of out 30-minute discussion, he asked if I would be interested in being an expert witness if needed, and I agreed to do so. In the years since, I have never been called or contacted again. I suspect that the number of crimes involving old Winchester firearms is very small.
My advice to you, and everyone else who collects or deals in old Winchesters, is to use the date of manufacture information available through the CFM records office (or references that used the data), and to not rely on the DOM information published by George Madis. To do otherwise is risking your neck, and the people you are dealing with. Simply put, do the right thing and obey the Federal statutes.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
And I certainly agree with you Bert. Below is part of the discussion that I had with the dealer in question…I had given the dealer a link to the WACA web page…”How old is Your Gun”.
And Tim thanks for your comments. I have seen, more than once, what you mentioned about a dealer selling an old gun as an antique when they have a Cody letter in their hand showing that it was not. I guess you just can’t fix stupid!
| Thank you for the additional resource and information, we look forward to using it in the future. On the webpage you referred there is a little disclaimer, “For purposes of determining if your gun is legally considered an “antique” (pre-1899 DOM), the BATF has told us they use the DOM dates published by the manufacture (Winchester). Those dates coincide with the Madis dates…” I made a clarification in the listing that the DOM is sourced from Madis. Again thanks for the helpful resource. Dan | 11/17/2018 | |
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Eagle said
Hello and thanks for the reply Chuck. I understand Bert’s list, as his list comes from the old Winchester Polishing Room Records that are housed at Cody, but not sure what you mean by “Winchester Records”. I will assume you mean the Winchester records as referenced above and NOT any records that the Winchester Factory of today might give out. There is still a rather high % of sellers that use the old Madis records which are obviously incorrect, verses the Cody housed records. I was recently told by a dealer that he uses the Madis records because ATF told him that is what they used. PeterPS: Not trying to start a war here either fellas
By Winchester I meant the Winchester records at the CFM not a list from whomever presently owns the Winchester/Browning name.
Bert H. said
Peter,
Any dealer who states that the “ATF told him that is what they used” is not telling you the truth. The BATF will use the information found in the original Winchester records held by CFM Records office when they are prosecuting any criminal offense involving an old Winchester firearm. They do not refer to a book written by an old time Winchester collector/dealer, or random information found on the internet. When prosecuting a case, they will use a verifiable source document. To do otherwise would result in legal malfeasance issues on their part, case dismissals, and probable counter lawsuits. The “dealers” who claim they have spoken to the BATF are B.S.’ing you!
Several years ago, I had a cordial conversation with a BATF Special Agent (high up it their Arizona office), and he was fully aware of the information & records available at the Cody Museum. He contacted me (via email) asking to speak with me about the list I had complied and published. When we spoke, he simply wanted to know what the source of my information was. At the end of out 30-minute discussion, he asked if I would be interested in being an expert witness if needed, and I agreed to do so. In the years since, I have never been called or contacted again. I suspect that the number of crimes involving old Winchester firearms is very small.
My advice to you, and everyone else who collects or deals in old Winchesters, is to use the date of manufacture information available through the CFM records office (or references that used the data), and to not rely on the DOM information published by George Madis. To do otherwise is risking your neck, and the people you are dealing with. Simply put, do the right thing and obey the Federal statutes.
Bert
tim tomlinson said
Eagle,Appreciate your comment about not trying to start a war. I will add my totally unprofessional observations and likely only roil the waters further.
First, I have observed 1894’s (mostly) being offered as “antique” when factory letters show they are not. The auction house or individual seller is using the Madis list as they then can potentially garner a premium for the sale. Then the rifle will also be handled and shipped as an antique.
Secondly, I, too, was informed by an ATF agent in past years the ATF used the Madis listing as at that time that was all they had. Since then, of course, the polishing room records were found and others often have factory letters from Cody with the date the rifle entered the warehouse, etc. Thus the conundrum of what the ATF uses. Me–I suspect they will use both at various times, depending on the agent, the office, the circumstances and just how tight they wish to be. As such I would not try shipping nor handling a rifle made in 1899 or newer as an “antique” even if it appeared at one time to be such per the Madis listing. I still marvel at the obvious effort to be “mistaken” by the auction house/private seller for the potential bonus of “antique” status. And that happens when they sometimes have a copy of the factory letter on hand showing the date it entered the warehouse! Should a court case ever arise I am fully confident the actual, researched date the serial number was applied would be the determining factor! Thus at this point in time, I would only use the factory records that are housed at Cody and the polishing room records. Let the “other guy” be the one to use the Madis list if he is so moved, just don’t pay the premium as an antique nor try shipping it
Tim
Tim, I agree that nobody knows what the BATFE (ATF) used let’s say 30 years ago. I do not doubt what Bert is saying about present day is correct either.
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