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Another Winchester Mystery - as if we needed one

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jwm94

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May 12, 2017 - 12:40 am

Check out the auction at the link below and notice that there are two numbers on the bottom of the barrel of this Winchester made to order gun. I have two very similar numbers on the one that I own as well. It’s my opinion that they are an order number and a serial number, and I know this might draw some comments to the contrary…but that’s okay, because I want people to give this mysterious issue as much thought and input as possible. They represent something, but what?

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-1032a-ultra-rare-winchester-springfield-armory-type-2-sniper-rifle-39207/

There are two other numbers present which do not correspond with any other known numbers. They are “178478” with a small “6” stamped over the second “7” in that number. The other number is “43920”.

James

Bert H.

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May 12, 2017 - 1:28 am

James,

I do not see a picture(s) showing the bottom of the barrel ?

The numbers “178478” and “43920” are most likely the original order number, and the order number when it was sent back to Winchester by Springfield. Winchester would not have put a serial number on that rifle, as it was serialized by Springfield.

Bert

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jwm94

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May 12, 2017 - 2:35 am

UPDATE: Bert, considering your idea that both numbers are order numbers, I’m thinking that you are correct, but one would be for Winchester to finish the receiver, and the other would be for assembly of the action to the barrel and stock. What do you think?

Thanks for taking a stab at it Bert. There is not a picture of the barrel. Also, the barrel and the stock are all Winchester factory products. The numbers were applied to the bottom of the barrel at the Winchester factory. Your idea that both numbers are order numbers is a good one. What Winchester did was order the Springfield action from Springfield, once a customer had placed an order for this type of rifle with Winchester’s Shooting Promotion Division. Once Winchester received the Springfield 03 Action, they finished it to match the Winchester barrel blue, and make the stock to customer specs, before assembling the rifle for shipping.

You are right in that Springfield applied the serial number (to the outside of the receiver).

Also of note is that the top of the barrel shows the WP in an oval, and the bottom of the barrel shows the VP in an oval.

Thanks again for trying to help solve this mystery, and keep helping. Thanks.

James

Bert H.

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May 12, 2017 - 4:49 am

jwm94 said
UPDATE: Bert, considering your idea that both numbers are order numbers, I’m thinking that you are correct, but one would be for Winchester to finish the receiver, and the other would be for assembly of the action to the barrel and stock. What do you think?

Thanks for taking a stab at it Bert. There is not a picture of the barrel. Also, the barrel and the stock are all Winchester factory products. The numbers were applied to the bottom of the barrel at the Winchester factory. Your idea that both numbers are order numbers is a good one. What Winchester did was order the Springfield action from Springfield, once a customer had placed an order for this type of rifle with Winchester’s Shooting Promotion Division. Once Winchester received the Springfield 03 Action, they finished it to match the Winchester barrel blue, and make the stock to customer specs, before assembling the rifle for shipping.

You are right in that Springfield applied the serial number (to the outside of the receiver).

Also of note is that the top of the barrel shows the WP in an oval, and the bottom of the barrel shows the VP in an oval.

Thanks again for trying to help solve this mystery, and keep helping. Thanks.

James

There is no way to say for sure, but that is a plausible conclusion.

Bert

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jwm94

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May 13, 2017 - 7:43 pm

Bert, listed below are some of the notes I have assembled that migh be of interest to some people, perhaps, you as well, in that one of them has to do with Winchester 1885 barrel blanks being sold to R. F. Sedgley, who produced custom rifles. In another note, Brophy supports this issue to some extent, but does not mention a particular custom gun maker or that they were 1885 barrel blanks. He then points out that such “…rifles are not to be confused with the sniper rifles assembled by Winchester.”

Reference: https://books.google.com/books?id=vb3dDN9FiekC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=1922+winchester+sniper&source=bl&ots=Ma_eMuz4u3&sig=-0pBeFce_GzITiOydOBAHVOO-xQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8VeOUN7kBYLg0gH2zoGgDg#v=onepage&q=1922%20winchester%20sniper&f=false

“In 1922 Winchester Repeating Arms Company did not have a bolt action rifle in production that could be built into a heavy barrel target rifle, but they did employ active competitive shooters and personnel who had served overseas in the recent World War and believed that Winchester could, and should, manufacture such a rifle even if it had to be built upon the Springfield Armory Model 1903 rifle action.”

Reference: My email correspondence with fellow collector, dated 2012

1 – In reference to the Winchester Sniper Rifle of 1922; “Once the rifle had been developed it was referred to by one author as a “super-rifle,” the development of which was based on the combined intelligence of the best riflemen in our nation. Winchester and Springfield decided to produce these heavy barrel match rifles at about the same time due to the interest shown by military and civilian personnel alike, when some heavy barrel guns showed up at the National Matches in 1919.

2 – “Brophy also made note that Winchester repeating Arms Company did make a number of Winchester barrels for the ’03 that could be ordered and fitted by a custom gunsmith, but he also pointed out that those rifles are not to be confused with the sniper rifles assembled by Winchester.”

3 – As you know, most Sedgleys were made in 30-06 because they re-used old Springfield receivers. Sedgley also bought many barrel blanks from Winchester in or about 1919. Winchester had a surplus of 1885 barrel blanks.

Reference: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=115831&page=1

“A typical Sedgley sporter was made on a Springfield action in caliber .30-06 with a 26â€ barrel that was made by Winchester. The stock was without cheek piece and made from imported walnut…The gun was hot blued and the color is a shinny blue that is, in my opinion, not as attractive as rust blue found on most custom sporters of the day.”

James

Bert H.

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May 13, 2017 - 8:16 pm

James,

I am very familiar with Sedgley’s connection to Winchester. Winchester sold most of their remaining Model 1885 parts (receivers and barrels) to R.F. Sedgley in 1923. I have encountered at least a few dozen high-wall Sedgley built rifles over the years. See the attached pictures below.

Attachments

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jwm94

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May 13, 2017 - 8:51 pm

I figured that you would know, Bert. 1919 to 1923 were prime years for the introduction of the pressure barrels ( heavy barrels) that were so popular with match shooters, as you would know. It makes sense to me that these 1885 barrel blanks would have been used to produce these Winchester Sniper Rifles. What is your opinion on this note?

James

Bert H.

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May 13, 2017 - 10:34 pm

James,

I would really like to see clear pictures of the under barrel markings. That stated, it is certainly logical to assume that Winchester Model 1885 high-wall barrels were used, as they were larger than most any other barrel available at that time.

Bert

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jwm94

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May 14, 2017 - 12:29 am

Bert H. said
James,

I would really like to see clear pictures of the under barrel markings. That stated, it is certainly logical to assume that Winchester Model 1885 high-wall barrels were used, as they were larger than most any other barrel available at that time.

Bert

I totally agree, Bert. If I ever get around to taking some good, clear pictures, I’ll certainly post them up.

James