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November 5, 2014
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Provocative rhetoric aside…
Seems to me that Apache is well respected within the Winchester collecting community for the thorough, persistent, and objective research he has undertaken in investigating/documenting the history of old historically significant rifles (ask the NRA museum or read the WACA magazine)…
If I were Apache (and I suspect he has done this), I would prepare a dossier on his “One of One Thousand”, including all the ‘objective’ evidence (internal markings, metallurgic testing, etc.) and well has the (inherently less reliable) ‘oral history’ of the rifle based on conversations with individuals no longer around to provide signed ‘testimony’. Since he is clearly being forthright about the strengths/weaknesses of the rifle (and has stated no intention of selling it), at the eventual time of sale such a dossier would keep the record straight (and permit prospective buyers the opportunity to make up their own minds as to value).
I have no basis/right to assign value, but a rifle supported by objective documentation, whose ‘weaknesses’ are plainly disclosed, would likely be of more value to a subset of collectors (those who cannot afford to compete for a pristine original with perfect provenance) than would a ‘reproduction’.
Just my opinion… Cheers
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis,
Your post is spot on. Larry is a really stand up guy. When researching Winchesters, he is a Bulldog.
Walter
Thinking about the broken tang and the scenario you mentioned Apache, there could be any number of reasons why the tang is broke. It could be as simple as a fall to the ground from atop a table (buttstock removed of course), Ive hear of it happening. Or maybe back in the day it was shipped to someone through the mail, buttstock removed to protect the wood from breakage during transit, only to have the tang broken from a drop in transit and the piece of the tang lost in the mix. Fact is you will never know, even if you did it probably still wouldnt make a difference. Im sure a buyer will seek you out, who has weighed its fault verses the many other qualities you indicate are correct and come up with an offer you cant refuse. If all else fails–shoot for the moon and work down from there.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
November 5, 2014
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If I want to indulge in (empty) speculation, I like the ‘borrowed without permission’, i.e. stolen, theory (to borrow a phrase from ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’)… May have been taken along with any number of other firearms/valuables. A common thief would not recognize that destroying the S/N part undermined the value of the stolen artifact, reasoning simply that it would conceal the crime as the rifle could no longer be traced to the owner from whom it was ‘liberated’. Who was to know that the factory records exist and that the serial number of the object had to be one of only four that matched the configuration? Larry (or any other WACA member) sureashell didn’t nick it!!!!
Technically speaking, this rifle probably ‘belongs’ to some long departed person who had it stolen MANY DECADES past… THAT would be a forensic exercise to be sure!!!
Just my opinion… Cheers!!!
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
To All Interested;
My personal opinion on this Winchester, that somewhere between 1879 and the 1950’s an “Unauthorized Individual” lifted the rifle from the rightful Owner. (Either he was dead, due to “Misadventure” as the British like to call getting Bushwacked” or it was lifted, so to speak.) In any case I think whoever committed this dastardly deed may have thought he was about to get caught, broke off the part of the tang that held the serial number, and then got rid of the rifle. (better to get rid of it than perhaps end up at the end of a rope). In any case the party I purchased it from was known to have more money than G-D, and had more than one of these Winchester 1 of 1000’s in his collection. I guess he couldn’t turn down a deal when it came along either. I bought it through the Gunmaker that did the repair. (MRCVS, this is for you, “for a MOST REASONABLE PRICE” just as you would have.) Even in those days a pristine One of One Thousand went for much more than I could afford. In any case I felt I’d rather have a repaired example that I could afford, than none at all. As it was the second 1873 rifle I purchased, and the more than reasonable price it was offered to me at, how could I go wrong. I never felt I did. Anyway, just my thoughts on what might have happened to the tang.
Apache, Larry N. (Ya Ta Hey Kola)
Not really interested in speculating about what might happened ages ago but if it was stolen, why wouldn’t a thief just file the number off, rather than break the tang. The serial numbers on old Winchesters were notoriously shallow and easy to remove, plus the crime history of our nation is replete with stories of crimes committed with weapons whose serial numbers were filed off.
Seems to me an old Winchester with filed off serial numbers would be worth much more than one with a broken tang. Or better yet, why didn’t the perpetrator just wait foe ePay to come along and get a replacement tang with a different serial number? 
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Apache and others,
The 1873 is my collectible of choice, and the first that I acquired in 1973 (serial 83848 if anyone ever sees it again). Like you, I would dearly love to have a 1 of 1000 but do not consider myself willing to spend that kind of money. Years ago a “faked” 1 of 1000 went through Rock Island Auction, and I was interested in trying to get it until it opened for more than I was willing to pay. Would I be interested in the one you have were it to go to auction? No doubt. Could I afford it? That would be a good question! I am reminded of a war story. Some years ago my brother and I sold our Dad’s house at auction upon his death. It had been valued for the estate at about 2/3d’s the value for property taxes, and then sold at auction for about half what it had been valued at. The auctioneer’s take was ” the house will sell for what it is worth that day at that place!” We hated the results, but took the offer and never looked back (well, not much). If you are interested in establishing a value for insurance, that is one thing. A rough idea for your wife, that may be another. Who then knows when it is time to actually SELL the piece? Too much can happen between now and then (we hope) and the advice to start trying to establish a dossier on the rifle is I think very good.
Bottom line–I wish it were mine!
Tim
Wincacher;
The most obvious reason why he wouldn’t have filed off the numbers or stash the rifle until things “Cooled down” was probably time. He just may not have had the time. So he did the quickest thing he could think of, break off the part with the number and dump the rifle.
Apache,
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