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1873 one of one thousand's value
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February 6, 2016 - 12:52 am
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Good Afternoon Gentlemen;

       A question has been posed to me by my Wife about a Winchester 1873, 2nd Model, 1 of 1000, and I’d like to pass it on to you folks, as I really don’t have a good answer. The question as follows.  To what extant would the value of an ORIGINAL One of One Thousand be affected, all things being equal, (Very Fine NRA Antique Condition, both in the Action, Bore and Finish) if part of the bottom tang had been broken off, this done intentionally, at some point in the past, then repaired, the original serial number re-engraved on the repair, but in a Later Style in order that it not be passed off as “Untouched By Human Hands”? I’ve seen the rifle, the repair having been done as to be virtually “Undetectable”. By putting the original serial number back on the repair, but not in the Original 2nd Model’s style declares to all that “work has been done on this piece”. If the engraver had used the correct 2nd Model style of numbers, without x-raying the rifle, it would have been undetectable to the eye. That’s how well the repair was accomplished. Now people, how much do you think it would affect the value of this Winchester? If it was in Unrepaired Condition at todays value being appox. $350,000.00. (There were only four 2nd Model, One of One Thousands made in the configuration of this rifle, if that helps.) This rifle “Letters”.

Apache, (Ya Ta Hey Kola)ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfused

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February 6, 2016 - 1:19 am
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There have been 1 of 1000’s sold at auction that were known to be copies of a original for $50k – $75k or so. This gun with a serial number that shows that its not original would fall into this category since you can’t prove that serial number went with that gun.

Bob

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February 6, 2016 - 1:19 am
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SUBSTANTIALLY!!!  Makes one question why it was broken off, as this would be very odd with any rifle, makes one question what else has been monkeyed with, is it the “real deal”, and would scare off a lot of prospective buyers.  I wouldn’t touch it at any price, unless ridiculously low.  If one is spending that kind of money it had better not be monkeyed with!

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February 6, 2016 - 1:31 am
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1873man said

There have been 1 of 1000’s sold at auction that were known to be copies of a original for $50k – $75k or so. This gun with a serial number that shows that its not original would fall into this category since you can’t prove that serial number went with that gun.

Bob

Yes, that was ‘implied’ with regards to what I wrote.  May not even be the real original serial number.  I mentioned I wouldn’t touch it unless ridiculously low.  You tossed out figures of $50,000 to $75,000.  This is substantially higher by at least tenfold what I was thinking of as ridiculously low.  Why buy a copy for that price, by the way?  Copies or fakery have no place in my collection!  For $50,000 to $75,000 you can get some museum quality Winchester firearms that have not been monkeyed with, are not fakes or copies, etc.

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February 6, 2016 - 1:53 am
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mrcvs said

Yes, that was ‘implied’ with regards to what I wrote.  May not even be the real original serial number.  I mentioned I wouldn’t touch it unless ridiculously low.  You tossed out figures of $50,000 to $75,000.  This is substantially higher by at least tenfold what I was thinking of as ridiculously low.  Why buy a copy for that price, by the way?  Copies or fakery have no place in my collection!  For $50,000 to $75,000 you can get some museum quality Winchester firearms that have not been monkeyed with, are not fakes or copies, etc.

I wouldn’t pay that either for a problem gun. Same thing for a restored 1 of 1000.

Bob

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February 6, 2016 - 2:44 am
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1873man, MRCVS;

      I agree with you ’73man, and almost said the same number to my Wife, but for one fact, and that’s why I couldn’t give my wife a diffinitive answer. After checking this rifle over very closely, unlike a Copy of a 1 of 1000, this one is the REAL THING. Another point I tried to consider was that it could only be 1 0f 4 Second Model One of One Thousand rifles with this configureation, as there were only 4 made by Winchester. So even if the serial was one of the other three, would it matter? My thought was that the price should fall somewhere between the average high dollar figure and zero for a Winchester like this one. As for the “why the Tang was broken off just before the serial number”? You guys are intellegent enough to figure out any number of reasons why someone would have done that. Now, granted MRCVS, I agree you should pass on any Collectable that you feel uncomfortable laying out big bucks for, and you certainly could buy a real nice Winchester for the kind of money 1873man suggests, but unfortuneatly not a One of One Thousand. Not a real one anyway. Even with an unknown serial number. As for never “Touching one at any price” of course unless “rediculously low”, thinking like that without checking into all the facts, this on any given thing be it Collectables or Investments of any kind are why some people drive a Maserati while most drive Toyotas. I myself drive an OLD Chevy. A Corvette, but still it’s a Chevrolet. Your thoughts, given that this rifle isn’t a copy? 

Apache, (Ya Ta Hey Kola)ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedCry

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February 6, 2016 - 3:20 am
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Here is the other thing to consider about your gun. Many times when a 1 of 1000 is restored they make new barrels, mag tube, wood and if the receiver is bad they use a donor gun to make up the new restored gun and use the original tang with serial number. The owner gets his newly restored 1 of 1000 back with a box of parts that includes a original 1 of 1000 barrel just missing a tang. He never destroys the original barrel and parts and eventually it get sold and someone else builds it up using a replacement tang and puts a real number on it that matches the configuration and era of the gun. Or the restorer kept the parts and sold the parts out the back door. Now you have two guns with the same number. Which one is real. I’m not saying this is what happened to your but it has happened.

What puzzles me about yours is the tang was broke off and welded back on. Most of the time they break at the lever latch since thats the weak point. If you weld it back on you don’t destroy the number. The only thing I can imagine is it broke and the piece was lost and they welded on a donor tang and changed the number. You still have the problem of proving thats what really happened and without good documentation of the repair it will be impossible to sell the story to a potential buyer.

Bob

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February 6, 2016 - 3:49 am
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Bob;

     I think we had a conversation like this once before. What I don’t recall is which one of your rifles we were discussing. I think it was about certain markings only found on a 1 of 1000, if I’m not mistaking. However that wasn’t my question. My question was, and I think you and MRCVS gave me your answers, these from “Ridiculously Low to $50K – $75K for a Copy of a 1 of 1000 at some auctions”. Am I correct in those answers? What you and mrcvs didn’t answer was, for the sake of argument, if this Winchester in fact was “The Real Deal” and neither a Copy or Fake, nor Built-Up Restoration, regardless of the only 1 of 4 possible serial numbers that it could be, what then would the possible value be? Or wouldn’t it change from that of a “Fake or Copy” in both of your opinions? 

Apache,ConfusedWink

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February 6, 2016 - 4:40 am
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Apache,

Yes we did have a discussion about the markings inside them.

If I was looking to buy your gun the way you describe it I would still be in that $50k-$75k range. For me to pay more for the gun I would want the broken piece of the tang with the original serial number on it so I could say I have the real serial number and it was repaired.

If you know the previous owners that know how it got broke or repaired, get it documented. That will improve its value

Bob

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February 6, 2016 - 8:27 pm
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Bob;

     I have searched for the passed history and disposision of this rifle’s missing part of the Tang. This happened perhaps 50 to 75 years before I bought it. The former owner I purchased it from, this in Connecticut around 30 years ago, was one of the Collecting Community’s formost firearms Collectors whose word was said be above reproach. He, I understand passed recently from a malignant tumor. He wanted the rifle repaired by a German Gunmaker (not a Gunsmith) considered to be one of the 6 or 7 best in the World. I at one point knew this Gunmaker, that’s how I received the opportunity to purchase the repaired Winchester. As to the how, where or when the Tang was broken, it beats me. I was however able, based on Spectrometer testing of the Chemical Finish and Oxidation of the rifle, comparing it to some of the other known rifles of the batch, of which there were 5 in addition to mine. This to find out when and what probable order number this rifle was manufactured under and was it indeed one of the six. It was the best I could do without the actual missing part of the bottom tang. It, along with the 5 other Winchester 1 of 1000’s were manufacture in 1879 and shipped. The rifle in question was the only one of the 6 made in its configureation and met ALL the specs in the Winchester Record Ledgers, and has ALL the correct things a 1 of 1000 should.  Many of these unknown to almost all Collectors. Will there always be a question on this rifle? Probably, but I always believed if you take a chance, you’ve got a chance. I did, and I’m not sorry. When I pass on, hopefully not in the too near future, my Wife will have the job of dealing with the rest of my collection, including this Winchester. I wanted her to have a consensus of opinion on the value of this particular firearm. Hence, the thread.

Apache,Smile

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February 7, 2016 - 12:19 am
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What I would have your wife do with it is send it to a national auction house, like James Julia or Rock Island, and let the market determine what it will bring.  That way, it will being what the market will bear, at that time.  If the consensus is that it is worth only gambling on it and paying what a comparable 1873 Winchester would bring that is not a 1 of One Thousand, so be it.  Or, if several high rollers want it, it might bring more than it is really worth, or is actually worth more than the $50,000 to $75,000 figure noted.  As for myself, it just would not be of interest to me in the condition it is on.  On the other hand, someone like me, who could not afford a perfect 1 of One Thousand, but wants one badly enough, may spend a significant sum on this firearm, but not over five figures. 

It just seems really odd to me that the tang broke on this particular rifle.

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February 7, 2016 - 1:18 am
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mrcvs;

      Is it that confounding, that someone could intentionally break off the part of the bottom tang that held the serial number? I guess I have to recant my statement regarding the intelligence of us all. One scenerio that could have been, whether it was or wasn’t is unknown, that at some point in times past this rifle was taken without the authorization of its owner. Perhaps at the prospect of being cornered and discovered, the unauthorized individual felt that by the breaking off and then disposing of the identifying part, this individual could then claim, “Rifle, what rifle are you referring to”? That’s only one of a number of possible scenerios for the part containing the identifying serial number to have intensionally been broken off and “Lost”. Now that wasn’t too difficult, was it? Or perhaps the originial Owner was afraid that his Wife might throw a fit when she discovered how much it cost him to purchase this Winchester, and desided to dispose of it. Or perhaps the son of the original owner borrowed his dad’s rifle to go hunting and accidently broke or damaged it, and fearing his father’s response to this did something very stupid. It has been said regarding the different histories of these Winchester 1 of 1000 firearms, that many seem to have interesting stories behind them. Ya Think? In any case I think you gave me your answer as to the possible value and a way my Wife can herself dispose of this Winchester. Thank you.

Apache,WinkWink

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February 7, 2016 - 2:26 am
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Well, I tend to think of the One of One Thousand rifles as being used less than other similar rifles as they are, well, One in a Thousand (not really, but the pun fit!).  Yes, it was likely done maliciously, as it seems hard to believe that it happened accidentally.  I think being stolen is the most probable answer.

By the way, you asked for feedback, and I provided it.  No need to get smart with me when I provided the feedback that you did not want to hear.

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February 7, 2016 - 4:25 am
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OK, I am not pointing fingers at anyone, but at this point I will ask that everyone step back, take a deep breath, and keep it civil.

Bert

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February 7, 2016 - 4:48 am
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Apache,

I would sell this gun yourself rather than saddle your wife with it. Leave her with the righteous guns since they  will sell themselves.

Bob

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February 7, 2016 - 5:07 am
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1873man said

Apache,

I would sell this gun yourself rather than saddle your wife with it. Leave her with the righteous guns since they  will sell themselves.

Bob

Amen to that, my brother.  The righteous guns will sell themselves, and sometimes the prices they bring are truly amazing!  “Problem guns” that require justifications to explain their condition will always prove to be a bit more tricky to sell.

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February 7, 2016 - 6:45 pm
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Burt H., MRCVS;

     Burt and the WACA, please accept my apology for getting a bit out of hand with this. I’m afraid it just makes me a bit nuts when I ask a rather simple question, explain the whole truth about the firearm in question, without any embelish on the particular firearm. This in order to get the best possible answer to my question, but instead get a dissertation on what a “Piece of junk it must be” and how it’s worth less than nothing and not worthy having in anyone’s collection to begin with. Then comes the next statement of sorts as usual, “but for cheap, I’d consider buying it, thus doing you a favor and taking it off your hands”. I have been a firearms collector since 1959, held a FFL for nearly 28 years, and probably heard it all from almost every type of Collector and Dealer that has been in the business. I’m well aware of the potential problems that might exist in selling this Winchester. However I personally know of at least 2 Dealers that over the years have sold “1 of 1000 Copies”, not “a repaired Original”. They were advertised as “Upgraded to 1 of 1000 Deluxe Winchester Rifles”. One sold for over $35,000.00 the other almost $50K. These were basically what 1873man was talking about, I think. In any case I don’t think I’ll ask anything like this again on the Forum. To MRCVS, it was not my intent to insult you as I hope it wasn’t your intent to do the same to me. You just pushed the right button to get the response you did. As I said earlier in this thread, “This ain’t my first Rodeo, and I’ve heard all of this before.” I do however wish to thank you MRCVS for the amount you feel it would be worth. This being an answer to the question asked by me.

Apache, (Ya, Ta, Hey,)KissKissLaughLaugh

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February 7, 2016 - 7:44 pm
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Apache,

Not a problem! You are amongst the most knowledgeable on this forum and I value and enjoy what you have to say in ALL your posts. I apologize if I rubbed you the wrong way. And, your One of One Thousand is probably very nice except for the problem you already identified. I have NO reason to suspect fakery or malicious intent on your part. However, “this ain’t my first rodeo”, and it clearly isn’t yours either. I guess recently I have become increasingly frustrated with the upsurge in fakery and deception out there for monetary gain, and sometimes it rubs a raw nerve. In this case, that wasn’t the intent. My apologies!

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February 8, 2016 - 9:39 pm
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mrcvs said

Apache,

Not a problem! You are amongst the most knowledgeable on this forum and I value and enjoy what you have to say in ALL your posts. I apologize if I rubbed you the wrong way. And, your One of One Thousand is probably very nice except for the problem you already identified. I have NO reason to suspect fakery or malicious intent on your part. However, “this ain’t my first rodeo”, and it clearly isn’t yours either. I guess recently I have become increasingly frustrated with the upsurge in fakery and deception out there for monetary gain, and sometimes it rubs a raw nerve. In this case, that wasn’t the intent. My apologies!

I am not sure who the administrator is on here but I would like to ask how obnoxious a person has to be in order to get booted?  That mrcvs guy has to be getting real close.  I received the same kind of nasty comments from him on a topic I posted.  Several members commented to mrcvs about his nasty, pointless comments.  Nobody cares that all that matters to him is 100% correct guns.  That statement is not an answer to anyone’s question.  Why can’t people stick with the actual question and give their answer.  If the question is “what is it worth” give your opinion on the value, don’t say it’s junk and you wouldn’t own it because it’s not 100%.  If you don’t have an answer for the QUESTION, don’t comment because nobody cares.  Half the time it seems as if you don’t even read the question.  You apologized to Apache and that was good of you but it was for “rubbing him the wrong way”.  You seem to do that in just about every response you give on here.

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February 8, 2016 - 11:33 pm
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Mark Manillo,

Your comments are inappropriate and uncalled for.  I shall refrain from commenting.

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