Log In
August 27, 2014
Offline
Pics and thoughts
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
August 8, 2024
Offline
I have seen two Model 70s, and one Model 43 that I thought were original. But, they lacked proof marks. I would think that if Winchester made a barrel that was not fitted on a rifle it would the have the mail order proof mark, along with the regular proof mark. At least this is what I have seen in the past.
January 20, 2023
Offline
I confess ignorance of the actual process but I had thought the barrels weren’t shot for proof and then marked, until after the barrel was fitted to a receiver and the barreled action made up with a stock into a completed rifle.
I think I recall seeing a Winchester publicity photograph showing an employee firing a rack of Garand M1 rifles for proof. Perhaps that was a function check and not for proof.
However, firing blue pills in a complete rifle to see if the barrel will rupture doesn’t sound like a desirable job or sound procedure.
I would be happy to learn the truth from anyone with actual knowledge.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 8, 2011
Online
Interesting topic. I have seen many mail order P proofed barrels with a Winchester definitive proof marks. How did that work?
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Zeb-
My understanding is that the “WP” definitive proofs were not stamped until after the fully finished and assembled rifle was proof tested. Ditto application of the electropenciled bolt serial number. That’s why those two markings are the only ones on a M70 that should be “rough”, i.e. never polished over.
The interesting thing (to me) is that the M70 barrels I’ve seen bearing the “circle P” mail order proof ALSO have the definitive “WP” proof. One gets the idea that those barrels were proof tested and given the mail order proof simply to denote that the factory did not fit it to whatever action it might now be attached to (no guarantee of correct headspace)…
This picture is typical IMHO… Another barrel of Ted’s that’s currently at my house for photos. This one’s a real oddity, in that it’s a ’39 date M70 barrel that in addition to the mail order proof is hand stamped “54” (for Model 54) in the exposed roll marking. Apparently someone ordered a replacement barrel for their M54 in 1939 and Winchester didn’t have one handy, so they took a current production M70 barrel (lacking “70” stamp) and stamped it “54”…
Like Bob said, I have on occasion seen intact and apparently original (assembled) M70s lacking one (or both) definitive proofs. Whether they were the result of a factory oversight or “lunchbox” guns is something I don’t know… If there’s no definitive proof on a loose barrel, either there never was one or there was one that’s been removed, e.g. polished out during a refinish.
As far as Ted’s 358 WIN barrel, it looks like a genuine 358 WIN barrel to me (as opposed to a rebored/remarked 308 WIN barrel). Winchester stopped providing mail order barrels well before they developed the 358 WIN, so it’s not surprising (to me) that there’s no mail order proof stamp. I do not like to comment on the blue finish (original or reblued) from photos. This one has undisturbed blue on the barrel threads and muzzle crown (probably the rifling as well), suggesting it hasn’t been on a gun/fired since it was blued. That (along with the absence of a definitive proof) would argue against it being a “take off” barrel. So IMHO it’s either an original “NOS” barrel or one that’s had the proof polished off…
I don’t know…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
January 20, 2023
Offline
EDIT: I WROTE THIS BEFORE SEEING LOU’S POST.
It probably means the barrels were milled, cut to length, rifled, threaded, chambered, polished – and then fitted temporarily to some sort of universal receiver that could be triggered from behind a wall, then fired for proof and stamped.
You wouldn’t proof-stamp before polishing. Or roll-mark either, I would think. From what i have seen, most models’ barrels were blued after proof-stamping. For some reason, the Model 71 barrels’ proof marks appear to have been applied through the bluing. [Bert H. has published substantial evidence of this, although some dispute it. I don’t. ]
Which begs the question when were the barrels of completed rifles proofed? It’s hard to imagine separate and different steps and sequences.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 5, 2014
Offline
While trying to make sense of inspection stamps (tedious exercise) I just ran across this picture I’d saved … Two M70 300 WIN MAGNUM Westerner-Alaskans, one completely lacking proof marks (s/n 553887). Otherwise it’s a normal looking gun, not refinished. The other one is a late 1963 rifle, s/n 578??? (I don’t have the full s/n recorded). It has the sloppy misaligned proofs typical of 1963. But the first one isn’t marked at all… I have several views of both sides/top of the receiver, just showing one…
I guess sometimes “stuff” (excrement) happens… 
As for barrel markings, M70 barrels were polished three (!!!) times with successively finer grit AFTER the exposed roll marks were applied. This usually removed any/all “cratering” of the steel from the die application. Proofs were applied to finished (blued) barrels, hence there shouldn’t be blue finish in the proof marks and they shouldn’t be polished over.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
January 20, 2023
Offline
Thanks, Lou. Now to my Ultimate Question – and a new Nash Rambler – the pink and beige sedan being shown by our own Bubbles LaTour in her shortest skirt, at center stage —depends on your correct answer…..[drum roll and anxiety producing music]:
Where and when did the actual proof firing occur?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
August 8, 2024
Offline
Louis, I am not sure on when Winchester stopped using the Mail Order proof mark. Many years ago I ordered a Model 59 shotgun barrel from Guns Parts, and it did have a Mail Order proof mark on the barrel. Recently I bought a three pinned vent rib Skeet 1 barrel. This was for my 1961 Winchester Model 50 FW. Interestingly the three pinned vent barrel was first available in 1961. So, I thought it would be a nice addition for my Model 50 FW. This barrel also has the Mail Order Proof mark, along with the regular proof mark. So, when you ordered a extra barrel for a Winchester Model 50 or 59 it seems that it would have the Mail Order proof mark applied to the barrel.
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Zeb-
In reference to M70s, I have to draw information from Roger Rule’s book, as I am unaware of any factory document(s) spelling out the process in detail. Rule did have the opportunity to interview several of the former employees involved in manufacturing M70s, so I presume that what he wrote jives with first hand accounts.
According to Roger the sequence was:
Gun Assembly Area: Barrels were attached to receivers, bolts assembled, final headspace adjusted, trigger/sear honed and installed, stocks, and misc parts (sights) installed. In the barrel shop the chambers were left slightly short. Headspace was adjusted during Assembly using Go No-Go gauges and a burnishing reamer. The Assemblers worked from a “Basic Nomenclature List” to ensure all the right parts went into each Catalog Symbol. After assembly the completed guns were inspected and either passed or returned for rework.
Gallery: Guns that passed inspection went to the gallery. Don’t ask me where within the sprawling New Haven plant the gallery was located. I do not know. First they were proof tested with a 70,000 psi charge, after which the WP proofs were added to receiver and barrel. Rifles then went to a “function-firing” station where regular ammunition was loaded into the magazine and feed/fire/extract/eject were checked. At this point an inspector added etched the bolt serial number using an electropencil. After function-firing, rifles went to a target point and were sighted in.
Final Inspection: Rifles were “completely disassembled” (I don’t know what Rule meant by “complete”) and everything inspected again. Once passed, they were oiled and sent to the Packing Room…
I have no basis on which to dispute any of this… Proof testing was performed on fully finished/assembled M70s before function testing and sighting in…
Note that this is different from the earlier (pre-1932) practice of “Violent (or Veritas) Proof” testing, which was done on Nickel Steel barrels and indicated by the “oval VP” stamp under the barrel. The “VP” proof was done to barrels after they were bored but before they were rifled/chambered/straightened. It was done in a fixture, not on a complete gun. The VP step was discontinued at the time CMS (Winchester Proof Steel) replaced Nickel Steel in barrels, as the CMS barrels didn’t need to be tested for strength. A very few M70s do have the “oval VP” stamp under the barrel, but these are ’32 or ’33 date CMS barrels originally made for M54s. Here’s an example of the “oval VP” on a M70 250-3000 Savage carbine barrel dated ’32.
Hope this helps…
BTW… I don’t know about Bubbles LaTour and her Nash Rambler, but when going through some of my Dad’s stuff a couple months ago I found a genuine AUTOGRAPHED nude publicity photo of “Chesty” Morgan. Impressive… I’d post it here, but it would make Bert blush and he’d have to take it down for propriety’s sake!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 5, 2014
Offline
Thanks Bob!!!
Good point… I know that in the December 1950 Component Parts catalog M70 barrels were marked with a **, which referenced the note “** Totally restricted – Not shipped from factory as separate items, factory installation required.” That would suggest that they weren’t using the mail order proof on barrels you couldn’t buy through the mail…
Perhaps the distinction was between rifle barrels (requiring headspace adjustment) and shotgun barrels???
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
January 20, 2023
Offline
“LOU: BTW… I don’t know about Bubbles LaTour and her Nash Rambler, but when going through some of my Dad’s stuff a couple months ago I found a genuine AUTOGRAPHED nude publicity photo of “Chesty” Morgan. Impressive… I’d post it here, but it would make Bert blush and he’d have to take it down for propriety’s sake!!! “
Having some [professional] expertise on violations of the 7th Commandment, I’m qualified to opine Chesty’s autographed photo does not meet the evidentiary standard of proof, UNLESS:
A. The autograph includes your Dad’s name and expresses gratitude. [As long as the dedication doesn’t spell out dinner and a romantic interlude, it can be countered that his contribution was merely a referral to a colleague practicing plastic surgery.]
OR
B. He appears in the photograph. [In legal jargon, this is “Very Bad; We’re Cooked.]
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 3, 2018
Offline
Ted/Bill:
With an extra FW custom stock that I own… I might have been interested in this barrel. But-An original factory 35 Whelen barrel would definitely ring the front door bell.
Alas, I have custom early M-70s in both 338-06 and .35 Whelen-cut rifled and re-chambered original barrels with original iron sights.
The Model 71s were in fact stamped AFTER finishing, assuring detection of any but the most astute sleight-of-hand brand rustlers. Case in point might be a pre-war Model 71 with 33 WCF or 45-70 GOVT artfully re-branded. Texas-New Mexico used to be very harsh in dealing with rustlers. Former Texas Ranger and Cochise County, AZ Sheriff John Slaughter on the San Bernadino ranch would be a classic example. All of his Winchesters were original, if a bit worn from hard border use.
Ridge Marriott
La Patruella de la Frontera
Los Fresnos & Brownsville-1975-INS-1983
1 Guest(s)
