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The listed SN 2596 would indeed correspond to production during 1892 but the take down feature was not introduced until 1893. In addition, SN 2596 was a 44 WCF caliber SRC. There is a series of take down OB 32 WCF rifles between 25960 and 25968. The last digit of the SN has been removed from the receiver. The seller has been notified. http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/704905251
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
The seller says he is going to change the description to say that the serial # has been altered. I would say, according to the below, that it would not be legal for him to sell it at all…
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer‘s or manufacturer‘s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer‘s or manufacturer‘s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
Eagle said
The seller says he is going to change the description to say that the serial # has been altered. I would say, according to the below, that it would not be legal for him to sell it at all…
§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer‘s or manufacturer‘s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer‘s or manufacturer‘s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]
Good point!!
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Indeed a good point about the altered serial number so that may be why the seller hasn’t changed the description at all. He only posted this note to the listing: “We have had a couple guys say this is a 2nd year gun since the takedown was introduced in 1893. So bid accordingly. Regardless it is a very nice and collectable rifle. Thanks CCC”
In looking closely at the 4 digit serial numbers, they do appear to be properly centered on the receiver (photos 43 – 48). Seems like the 1st and last numbers would have to had been removed to get this centering.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
If you closely at picture # 43 and especially # 67, it sure looks to me like the center of the bottom of the receiver lines up with the 9 in the serial #. That would not be correct and shows that the last serial # to the right has been removed. Just my opinion of course. Peter
Eagle said
If you closely at picture # 43 and especially # 67, it sure looks to me like the center of the bottom of the receiver lines up with the 9 in the serial #. That would not be correct and shows that the last serial # to the right has been removed. Just my opinion of course. Peter
That’s a good observation. Hadn’t seen # 67. But…if you compare # 44 and # 47, the distance from the outer edge of the digit to the flat of the receiver appears to be the same.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
The seller, and a buyer would risk a felony charge. Only a fool would go there.
twobit said
The listed SN 2596 would indeed correspond to production during 1892 but the take down feature was not introduced until 1893. In addition, SN 2596 was a 44 WCF caliber SRC. There is a series of take down OB 32 WCF rifles between 25960 and 25968. The last digit of the SN has been removed from the receiver. The seller has been notified. http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/704905251Michael
If the Cody records show SN 2596 as being a 44-40 WCF and a saddle ring carbine to boot, then there is definitely a problem here, as the small caliber barrels and the large caliber ones are not interchangeable and the receiver shows no trace of the saddle ring. But, just to play the devil’s advocate here, Madis states (page 392, “The Winchester Book”, 1979 edition) “Takedown models 92 were first offered in 1893; prior to this only experimental and very few production takedown rifles were produced.”
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
November 7, 2015
Offline
Blueliner said
The seller, and a buyer would risk a felony charge. Only a fool would go there.
Just for the sake of discussion, with a likely production date of 1895 is it a “firearm” or is it an “antique”? Moot point for me in this case, I don’t need another “shooter” 1892 in 32WCF and IMHO the price has moved somewhat above the “shooter” price range. Fore end looks a bit odd as well.
As a matter of principle I wouldn’t knowingly buy it with an altered serial number under any circumstances.
Good eye, Michael.
Something is definitely odd about the rifle. The SN looks centered to me (Pic 45 and the script on the SN digits appears right for the SN range (although looking a little worn-below are a few SN digit pics to compare). However, if it letters as a 44 cal carbine, the fact that it has a small caliber recess in the receiver for the magazine tube tells us its definitely not a 44 cal receiver (compared below). I have come across carbines that have been converted at the factory (letter as such) to a TD rifle, but this isnt one of them. If the script style of the SN checks out either someone has a set of the old dies and either removed the SN or took advantage of the original being worn down (absent). The current SN looks worn and as if its been there for a considerable amount of time. Definitely doesnt look recently restamped. The first small caliber TD rifles I see are in the 20,500 SN range. Have seen several really early but they werent original.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Good morning
When I look at image #43 and extend an imaginary line starting at the point of the receiver frame just above the lever at the bottom of the photo and parallel to the sides of the receiver the line would pass through the 9 of the SN and therefore the number is not centered. If a line is drawn so that it would pass between the 5 and the 9 it is clearly not parallel to the sides of the receiver. I will admit that it is very difficult to find any evidence on the surface that supports the removal of a right side digit. But, it is much simpler to do that than to alter a large caliber SRC into a takedown rifle and remove the staple from the receiver and cover that.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
I am seeing the same thing as Michael, especially using picture # 67. Peter
1892takedown said
Something is definitely odd about the rifle. The SN looks centered to me (Pic 45 and the script on the SN digits appears right for the SN range (although looking a little worn-below are a few SN digit pics to compare). However, if it letters as a 44 cal carbine, the fact that it has a small caliber recess in the receiver for the magazine tube tells us its definitely not a 44 cal receiver (compared below). I have come across carbines that have been converted at the factory (letter as such) to a TD rifle, but this isnt one of them. If the script style of the SN checks out either someone has a set of the old dies and either removed the SN or took advantage of the original being worn down (absent). The current SN looks worn and as if its been there for a considerable amount of time. Definitely doesnt look recently restamped. The first small caliber TD rifles I see are in the 20,500 SN range. Have seen several really early but they werent original.
Outstanding research and based on photos 43 and 48 I see the numbers as being centered. The solution lies in getting one’s hand on the subject for a visual inspection. A straight line down the middle of the bottom of the receiver is hard to project because none of the photos have the receiver in a perfectly perpendicular position and square to the camera position.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
November 7, 2015
Offline
It would be nice to see a picture that shows something for a centerline reference of the bottom of the receiver. Interesting that in all the pics of the SN that didn’t happen. The “9” does seem to be centered in some pics but I’d like a better look. Last digit could have been lightly stamped and wore off over the years, doesn’t appear to have been altered recently but hard to say.
Interesting that bids have stopped since he inserted the note about the SN issue.
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