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November 5, 2014
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Dear Experts-
This is a very simple question that hopefully someone can help me with.
Below are photos of two Lyman 48WJS sights. Both are the “full block” style (1937-1946) that required the stock to be inlet for the base. The older one (with the 75 point slide) is on the left, the newer one (with 60 point slide) is on the right. Both sights have matching assembly numbers.
My question is when did Lyman change the style of the elevation knob? Pre-war or post-war? If the change was introduced before the war was it late ’30’s or early 40’s? Any help appreciated!!!
Strobel’s book does not go into sufficient detail to answer the question. The target knobs on the sight on the right carried over to the “half-block” style base that came along in ’47, but I can’t find when it started being used. I’ve not yet resorted to buying reprints of every Lyman catalog from 1938-1946, but it may come to that… 
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou,
Ditto, I’ve been trying to find the answer to that same question. As you note Stroebel’s book does not provide that level of detail. I ordered the “Lyman Sights” repro 1936 catalog from Cornell Publishing. The catalog does not show the 48 WJS but does show an illustration for the 48 W on a Winchester 54 with the later style elevation knob (as right in your photo) on a long slide. I have a Model 54 and that’s the sight that it has. Interestingly the catalog has illustrations of the 48 J and 48 Y on Winchester 52 and Savage (?) respectively each with the earlier style elevation knob (as left in your photo). So as of 1936 catalog question goes unanswered.
I ordered from Cornell the “Lyman No. 48 Sight Manual” (year ?) and “Lyman 1940 Gun Sights No. 27 Catalog” both due for delivery later today. We’ll see what they show. Cornell does not list 1937, 1938, 1939 Lyman sight catalogs.
I may have to go to earlier catalogs but am skeptical that those will help as the 1936 catalog does not list/show the 48 WJS.
At one point I felt the knobs might simply be different for “target” and “hunting.” I hope a knowledgeable source reads this string and can provide clarification. I want to know which is correct for a model 70 Super Grade 30-06 with 1938 mfg date.
Mac
Online
I have no clue, but will mention that WACA member and Collector magazine editor Brad Dunbar has studied the sights Winchester used, and has a fair number of the Lyman catalogs. If he does not see this, send him a PM.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 5, 2014
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Hi Mac-
Thanks for that!!! My impression was that the Lyman 48W had yet another style of elevation knob that looks like the picture below. This is not my gun, just a picture I saved. It’s of a 1937 M70 Target rifle and the sight may or may not be original to the gun. In any event, this style 48W was more common on the M54.
There is also mention (in Winchester catalogs) of a Lyman 48 WJ (not WJS) for late M54s, but I’ve no idea what distinguishes a 48W from a 48WJ (or 48WJ from 48WJS for that matter). 
It’s sure as heck not the base block, since one commonly encounters Lyman 48WJS sights with blocks marked “W” (or not marked at all), but with matching assembly numbers…The 48WJS is described in 1937 Winchester advertising for the M70 as “new” so I presume there was some change.
As for your question, i.e. what’s correct for a 1938 M70 SG, the next photo is of a gun I do have. Forgive the screwed up color balance on my camera – too blue – the gun is the right color in daylight and I’m pretty sure it’s original. This gun is S/N 3748, which makes it a relatively early 1937 SG. Chambered in .30 GOV’T’06. I do not have a 1938 SG with a factory Lyman 48 WJS…
FWIW my anecdotal experience is that the earlier style knobs (as above) are most commonly encountered through ’42. So I’d say you can’t go wrong with that sight. The date the early 48WJS knobs changed to the later style is not clear to me. I presume that the change from the 75 minute graduations on the slide change to 60 min occurred around about the same time (???)
Maybe Brad will save us both!!!
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 5, 2014
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Hi Mac-
As long as I’m bothering you, I have a question about your 1938 M70 SG. What is the distance between the front edge of the fore end sling swivel base and the back of the bakelite for end tip:
This:
Or this:
On the earliest M70 SGs the stock was like the top photo (S/N 3748; .30 GOV’T’06). This caused wood splitting problems, so the inletting was changed to the second photo (S/N 50821; .270 W.C.F.). I’ve been trying to assemble a survey to figure out when this change occurred. This is hard b/c of all the stock swapping and “upgrading” that has gone on over the years… Currently, it looks like the change occurred pretty darned early in production, like sometime in 1938. So your rifle could be highly informative (and as far as I can it tell could go either way)…
So if you don’t mind, what is the S/N (more or less) of your rifle and is it like the top photo or the bottom?
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou,
Great info, I just got educated…your response got me off my seat and to the gun safe. My Model 54, serial 27098A, has the knob per your photo (I had never looked closely and thought it was like the newer knob, similar but not the same). So it would appear I have the correct and possibly original Lyman 48 W sight for the 54.
I am including photo of the 54 together with the 70 SG. The 70 SG, serial 15471, has Griffin & Howe scope mount with pre-War Lyman Alaskan scope thus I can’t insert the Lyman 48 WJS aperture arm without scope removed. I had an aperture arm blank made for when the scope is mounted. You’ll see the aperture arm with the knob we are discussing leaning against the trigger guard.
Matching assembly numbers for both sights. Still waiting on todays mail so no new info from the Lyman catalogs.
Mac
Louis Luttrell said
My impression was that the Lyman 48W had yet another style of elevation knob that looks like the picture below.
That low one is the earliest, but it is still shown on the 48W of 1940; which may mean no more than the continued use of an old illustration. The tall, narrow-band knurling style is shown in the 48WJS photo. The tall, wide-band knurling style is shown on other 48s. Possibly all three were being used in 1940…until the older ones were used up.
Big Mac said
My Model 54, serial 27098A, has the knob per your photo (I had never looked closely and thought it was like the newer knob, similar but not the same). So it would appear I have the correct and possibly original Lyman 48 W sight for the 54.
You do if you’re talking about the long slide.
Lou,
Our messages are passing each other in the ether…my model 70 SG, serial 15471, fore end is like your first (top) photo, the earlier version. It appears to have a very small pin or divet at about the 8 o’clock position on the swivel bracket. My eyes aren’t good enough to tell.
Mac
November 5, 2014
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Hi Mac-
From your photos, I’d say that both your M54 (Lyman 48W) and M70 (Lyman 48WJS) have period correct receiver sights. 
A couple years ago I bought a 1927 M54 1st Standard Rifle with Lyman 48W from Dave Morris as a Christmas present for my Brother. Our Dad was born in 1927. Same long slide Lyman 48W sight as yours.
Thanks also for the photo of the underside of the fore end of your M70 SG. That’s very helpful. I’ve got that info recorded on 118 cloverleaf tang M70 SGs so far. As far as I can tell (excluding outliers that are probably stock-swapped guns) the stock like yours is dominant through about S/N 12000. Then there seems to be a big overlap (12000 through 37000 – equating to late ’37 through mid-’41) where either stock might be encountered. After that it’s pretty much all the later swivel position (again excluding ‘outliers’). So SG rifles in the 12000-37000 range are where I’m looking for more info.
Thanks,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
As long as I’m bothering you, I have a question about your 1938 M70 SG. What is the distance between the front edge of the fore end sling swivel base and the back of the bakelite for end tip:
My ’39 SG has the wider spacing between wood & Bakelite.
But Bakelite? Who’s penny-pinching idea was that? Cost of buffalo horn would not have exceeded about 50 cents at the time.
Esthetically better than either: a nicely proportioned schnobble.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Clarence-
Thanks for that!!! Are you willing to give the S/N of your 1939 SG (and the chambering – although that’s less important to the survey)? Yours seems to be in the “overlap” zone as well.
It’s funny that Roger Rule never mentions this SG stock change in his book. He must have known about it, as it’s the main cause of the difference in the size of the ‘diamond’ in the fore end checkering of pre-war SGs.
Here’s a picture of a the bottom of the fore end of a beautiful pre-war SG (S/N 1748) owned by another WACA member who shared this with me. You can immediately see why the change was made!!!
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
Hi Clarence-Thanks for that!!! Are you willing to give the S/N of your 1939 SG (and the chambering – although that’s less important to the survey)?
No secret at all about the SN, but the “digging it out” part deters me from doing it right away. It’s here…somewhere.
Lou,
Getting back to you on the Lyman 48 WJS knobs. I received today from Cornell the reprints of two additional pubs (Lyman No. 48 Sight Manual and Lyman 1940 Gun Sights No. 27 Catalog). The first pub provides no additional clarification. However the 1940 sight catalog lists the No. 48 WJS for Winchester 70 and 54. The accompanying illustration shows the sight with the newer knob with what appears to be the 60 point elevation scale (illustration not clear), same as the right sight in photo in your first post. Interestingly the accompanying description states “The knobs for windage and elevation are large and newly designed.” So it would appear pre-war 1940 is the introductory year for the new knob.
Cornell does not list a Lyman catalog for 1939 but I’ve sent an email request to them.
This is close enough for me and my 1938 SG.
Mac
Hello
I did not read through this earlier and I’m not very knowledgeable about this particular subject. I did look around and found a Lyman catalog from one year after Mac’s and scanned a few pages.
I also scanned some misc. Lyman sight information that was in a chart that may have been included in the Lyman catalog No.28. I might have posted those before. Anyway, I hope it all helps.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Mac and Brad-
Thank you both!!! This is very helpful.
It would appear that the newer style knobs are pictured in both catalog 27 (1940) and 28 (1941). That would definitely make the change pre-war and no later than 1940. I’ll have to try and locate the 48WJS listing in Lyman catalog Nos. 25 and 26.
Winchester’s catalogs/brochures for 1937 clearly show the 48WJS with the “older style” knobs, while describing the sight as “new” for the M70. Apparently by NLT 1940 Lyman had again improved the design. Mostly, I think (but need to check and confirm) the change related to the “60 point” slide that went along with a change in the threads in the elevation screw. The new knobs just adorned the new staff.
Either way, thanks again… I recently acquired a 1938 M70 that has the “newer” Lyman 48WJS and I’ve been assuming that it is a replacement. Still not sure, but it’s a bit more plausible that the sight actually belongs to the gun.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
I am very interested in this discussion! I received a Model 54 Carbine (SN 29856A) from my grandfather several years ago – it was his father’s before him. At some point, my grandfather had installed a 4x scope and removed the slide from the receiver sight. The slide is long gone and I’ve since updated the scope, but I’ve got an itch to switch it back to irons, but can’t tell for sure which slide I should be looking for. There aren’t any model numbers marked on the sight base. The inletting for the slide screw seems like it is sized for a long slide, but my frame of reference is pretty limited. Would appreciate any insights! Thanks!
[email protected] said
The slide is long gone and I’ve since updated the scope, but I’ve got an itch to switch it back to irons, but can’t tell for sure which slide I should be looking for.
Finding a separate long-slide would be difficult enough, but if you did, it might not fit exactly right, because they were individually fitted to their bases–that’s why they have a ser. no. Finding a complete 48W, the model you need, wouldn’t be any easier. Finding either a slide or the complete sight will probably require a long & diligent ebay search, unless you just get lucky.
November 5, 2014
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Hi balexander87-
Clarence is right, of course. The period correct Lyman receiver sight for a M54 is the 48W, which has the long slide requiring the extended cut out on the side of the stock. Often there is a single “W” stamped on the back side of the block where it cannot be seen with the sight installed. OTOH sometimes they are not coded at all in this time frame.
For simplicity I’m moving down two of the photos from above that show the correct slide. The bottom rifle in Big Mac’s photo is a M54 with Lyman 48W. The second photo shows the 150-point graduation of the 48W long slide a bit better.
The 48WJS version that superseded the 48W came along about the time the M70 was introduced (1936) and the 48WH was first cataloged on the M70 target rifles in 1938. FWIW the 48WJS also came in a long slide version, so if you are not worried about being exactly period correct you could use a long slide 48WJS. I think (do not count on this!!!) that the threads on the 48W and 48WJS long slides (and the 48WJS with the cut-off 75-point slide) are the same. So (maybe) a long slide from a 48WJS would work in your 48W sight base as well. I do not have a 48W at present (gave my last one away) so I cannot check for interchangeability. As far as I know the threads didn’t change until the 60-point slide (with the different knobs) came along in about 1940. So parts from one of those will not work with your 48W block.
These sights can get pricey on eBay, especially the 48W, but they do turn up now and again.
Hope this helps!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Clarence and Lou,
Thank you both very much for the clairification and confirmation. That’s a good tip that a WJS may work. I will definitely have to keep that in mind.
The rifle is definitely a “user” that I plan to shoot and hunt with for years to come. Its heritage is filled with many hunts and I get the most enjoyment out of it when sitting in the deer woods with it on my lap. To that end, it doesn’t need to be “period correct” – just functionally correct. The hand fitting does concern me, as an undersized slide will be loose, although I’d be more than happy to hone a slightly oversized, orphaned slide to fit.
Again, thank you both for the input. I will have to keep an eye out. Saw a 48W on EBay for something around $400!! You’re not kidding on the prices these things command!
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