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Did all non-monte carlo stocked early M70 Featherweights use the 22G or 22K rear sight? I have read that the monte carlo stocked rifles all used the marbles folding leaf but what is correct on a 1953 FWT that has the standard stock? Help appreciated, thanks.
On the other hand, I have two first year M70 308 Featherweights with Standard Stocks (that do not appear to have been altered)… One (S/N 224336) has a Marbles 69 folding leaf (as pictured in Rule photo 6-42 on a Featherweight barrel). That would be consistent with the 1953 Winchester catalog but contradict Rule. The other, (S/N 224447) has a Win22K (which Rule asserts is correct for a pre-1954 low comb Featherweight). The Lyman 16A supposedly replaced both the Win 22K and Marbles 69 sometime around 1954-1955.
Cheers…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Milwroad-
The page from the 1953 Winchester catalog reprint I mentioned is copied below. Note the bit on sights (and forgive the poor quality reproduction):
Of course, if the original question was whether a Win 22G or Win 22K is the correct non-folding variant for a 1953 308 Featherweight… Well I’ll probably just add to the confusion, as (I’m sure you’ve seen) the “sources” are internally inconsistent. I trust others can answer accurately…
Rule’s book says that for the Standard Rifle and Super Grade, the Win 22G was used on low comb stocks until 1954 and replaced by the slightly taller Win 22K from 1954-1957. But for the Featherweight his information is contradictory… The TEXT only mentions the Win 22K for the low comb stock (1952-1955), but the TABLE where he reproduces 1952 Winchester catalog information states Win 22G. Typo? I don’t know and unfortunately I don’t have a 1952 Winchester catalog copy…
To further obfuscate, Madis’ sight book mentions the Win 22K for the M70 Standard and Super Grade 1954-1957 (like Rule), but does not mention the Featherweight sights at all. Strobel’s book repeats the Madis information for the Win 22K application (Standard/Super) and also does not have a separate section for Featherweight sights.
So… like you… I don’t know???? You have motivated me to have a look at S/N 224447, which definitely has a Win 22K/G sight (height???) on it. But I’d always just ASSUMED it was a Win 22K (based on Rule’s text) and have never actually measured it.
Of course that rifle is in my vault in Virginia, not here in flood prone Charleston SC, so it will be a while before I can satisfy my curiousity.
Cheers…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
You have identified the source of my uncertainty-Rules book. I have two 1953 FWTs, serial numbers 24542x and 26635x. Both have the Marbles sights but one has the standard stock. I got them from others though so I do not know if the stocks are original. I anxiosusly await your trip to your gun safe. Thanks for the information and research. I really appreciate it.
I dug through my computer files and found some old poor quality pics I took of S/N 224447 when I first got it (not fit to post). I’m pretty sure it has the taller Win 22K sight as I originally stated (and as I have ‘logged’ in my collection inventory). I would appreciate anyone else’s observations on early (1952-53) Low Comb Featherweight sights.
My own (non-scientific) observation is that there was more variability/overlap in M70 sights than one would conclude from either the books or contemporary Winchester catalogs. Is this true on other models???
For example, Rule’s book says the Win 22K was used on low comb M70 Super Grades from 1954-1957. As it happens, I have two low comb Super Grade rifles that by serial number would date to 1955. (The year being significant because it is when the changeover occurred between regular metal finishes and rust blue barrel/engine turned action components). The earlier serial number rifle (270 WIN) has the (correct) sculpted cheek rest low comb stock (post-1952) with hard rubber grip cap and ordinary blue finish, while the slightly later one (300 H&H Magnum) has the same sculpted low comb stock but with steel grip cap and the rust blue/engine turned metal finish. BOTH have the Lyman 16B folding rear sight… Not a Win 22K on either…
Any observations???? For what it’s worth, my Father acquired the 270 WIN Super Grade from Roger Rule back in the 1980s when Mr. Rule was dispersing much of his M70 hoard…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Ok, now I am going to really confuse the issue-something I am good at. I just checked my FWTs and looked closely at the folding sights. The sight on the 244000 rifle is not the Marbles 69 but is the Lyman 16B. Now look at this. A STD M70 with straight stock and Lyman 16B.
http://chesterfieldarmament.com/products/winchester-model-70-standard-rifle-stith-kollmorgen-scope
My sense is that the original rear sights have been removed from both guns and replaced with the Lyman 16B….
Hi Ted-
The sights on the 1951 Standard Rifle on the Chesterfield Armament website have definitely been replaced. The front sight is not a Win103C and the Lyman 16A/B weren’t around in 1951. I’d also agree that a Lyman 16A on a 1953 Featherweight would be a couple years too early, so is most likely a replacement. I’d swap it for a Marbles 69 or Win22K just to restore the original appearance (just maybe not sure which one…).
There is ALWAYS a strong likelihood of original Win22G/K sights being replaced on any M70 that was ever taken afield. As soon as objective bells on scopes became popular those pesky Win22G/K sights were always in the way, and you had to fill the dovetail in the barrel with something…
As for the question of what sight IS correct for a 1953 low comb 308 Featherweight… Rule says Win22K in the text and in his comprehensive table of Catalog Symbol Numbers, and Win22G in his table of 1952 offerings (but only in that one place – which is why I questioned typo???). Yet the 1953 Winchester catalog (above) pictures and describes BOTH low comb and Monte Carlo versions with a folding rear sight (Marbles 69). So there is an inconsistency in the reference materials and I’m grateful to hear what the experienced collectors (like you) think/have observed.
As for my 1952 low comb Featherweights, described above, one has a Marbles 69, which could be a contemporary replacement as that rifle has seen (light) use. OR it could be correct, if the 1953 Winchester catalog description applies??? The other one (I’m now pretty sure per my ramble above) has a Win22K. That one is the 24″ barrel variant. It is perhaps noteworthy that the 24″ barrel 1952 low comb Featherweight pictured in Rule’s book has a Marbles 69 sight. My third low comb Featherweight, a 1955 358 WIN, has a Win22K rear sight. Those are the only low comb Featherweights I’ve got – so not a huge sample size…
As for the two 1955 low comb Super Grades (that should have Win22K sights per Rule’s book), both are in as-new condition with no sign of ever having had a scope mounted or residual ‘elevator marks’ from a Win22G/K sight. Both have correct Redfield 255 front sights, etc… Certainly the Lyman 16 series sights were in use by 1955 (on Monte Carlo Standard and Super Grade). The rear sights on mine could be replacements, sure, but I’m going to leave them ‘untouched’ while in my hands. I generally try to maintain a supply of original Winchester sights and other minor parts, so I’m pretty sure I could throw a Win22K in the box if I ever sell these guns on (no plan to do so at present). That way the new owner can do whatever they please…
Cheers…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Is the picture in the “Rifleman’s Rifle” of a 22K sight correct? Can someone post the picture of a 22K sight? His picture of a 22K on page 164 is different than his photo of a 22K (6-43) on page 165. Which one is a 22K? The front of those two sights are very different. Thanks
Milwroad-
Sorry can’t help right now… As I’ve mentioned, most of my M70s are housed out of state (about to get 2′ of snow but away from the flood zone I currently live in). So no 22K handy to post a pic of…
As I recall… The 22K on M70 Featherweights looks just like the 22G EXCEPT for the height of the sight blade. Like the Rule pic on p165, except in that photo you cannot tell the difference in blade height from the pic of the 22G a couple pages before. The reproduction of the Win 22K from a factory catalog (with the differently shaped front) is from an older catalog (I think)…
Madis’ sight book does not help. His (reproduction of a factory) drawing of a 22K has the same front contour as the 22G but does not clearly exhibit the height difference.
Best way to find a 22K is probably to watch Ebay for “22G” sights and buy the ones that look “too tall”… They aren’t marked ‘G’ or ‘K’ anywhere so most sellers don’t discriminate…
Best of luck (and hopefully someone can give you the true answer…)
Lou
P.S. When looking at the folding rear sights on M70s on-line or in books, note that the Marble’s 69 leans “backward” (toward the shooter), as opposed to the Lyman 16 series that’s more perpendicular to the barrel. Best way to tell at a glance…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
I’m sorry that it took me a while to gather up the parts, but in response to Milwroad’s request for photos of Win 22G and 22K sights for M70 Winchesters:
Although Winchester components parts catalogs, e.g. December 1950, show the 22K with a “double scalloped” front end, the sights used on M70 low comb Featherweights (and Standard rifle/SG for a time), differed from the 22G only in the height. This is consistent with the picture of a 22K in Rule’s book and my own observation. (Please correct me if I am mistaken).
In the photos above the 22G is on the left and taller 22K on the right. I also showed two “correct” elevators for the 22K. The Win 3C 4-step elevator used with both the 22G and 22K on M70s, and the 0.175″ height Win 1C elevator used (among other applications) on M43 Winchesters in the 50’s.
Hope this helps “belatedly”…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
OK folks… In case anyone is following this thread… (My thanks to WACA members who have given feedback!!!)
In my obsessive pursuit of the answer to Milwroad’s question, I have done my best to consult the “highest possible authorities”. I now have “definitive evidence” from four sources, and they are ALL DIFFERENT.
The Rule M70 book clearly states that the Win 22K as used on early to mid 1950s M70 LC rifles was 0.090″ taller than the Win 22G. Those dimensions correspond to the photos I posted yesterday. The Madis “Sight Book” shows the Win 22K with a single scallop front contour (like Rule) but as a “flat top” sight (completely different shape to the vertical part of the base). The Winchester component parts catalogs, as late as at least 1950, show the Win 22K with double scalloped front contour and do not specify height. (Probably an earlier version).
BUT… Seewin has original factory drawings of the Win 22K and 22G sights that span the time frame that is relevant to the original question: “What sight is correct for a 1953 M70 FWT?”
The bottom line is that after 1948, the Win 22G and Win 22K used the SAME sight base, 0.380″ height, and differed ONLY in the shape of the INSERT (sliding stamped sheet metal bit). On the 22G drawing, a 12-31-48 note states “This sight base now also used in place of 22H & 22K”. On the 22K drawing, a revision dated 7-23-52 that mentions “altered front end” is written in the same hand as a note on the drawing itself stating “Also see 22G”.
SO… With respect to the photos I posted yesterday, the INSERTS correspond to the dimensions given for the 22G “high slide” and 22K “Slide 22K” shown on the factory drawings. The “Slide 22K” is 0.315″ height overall with the shallow ‘V’ down to the sight notch. The “High Slide” on the 22G drawing is 0.340″ height overall with a deeper ‘U’ down to the sight notch. However the bases on the two sights I pictured are 0.090″ different in height. In other words, the inserts in those photos are probably about right, but the difference in the height of the sight bases is not indicated in the factory drawings.
I have a feeling that whatever Roger Rule took measurements of for his book is the same sight I pictured as a “22K”, since we both came up with 0.090″ difference. Whether that is truly reflective of early 1950s factory production or not is less certain…
Here’s my REQUEST… The M43 Winchester (manufactured between roughly 1948 and 1953) was only ever supposed to use the Win 22K sight (unless ordered with a Lyman 57E receiver sight, of course
). If anybody has a M43 handy, please measure the vertical height of the rear sight blade and say whether it is 0.380″ tall or 0.470″ tall. That’s the best way I can think of answering the question of what a Win 22K looked like in the 1950s.
Right now I’m thinking Seewin’s data are correct!!! THANKS Steve!!!
Whew… Who knew such a simple question could be so complicated!!! 
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Jim-
Having revisited this topic as recently as yesterday (and still not really knowing the correct answer), my attempts to reconcile the Winchester Component Parts catalogs, Winchester Firearms catalogs, and information in Rule’s book, would lead to the following chronology:
1952-1953: Both MC and LC FWTs manufactured in 308 WIN chambering only. Sight on both was the Marbles 69 folding (see 1953 catalog reprint page above). Nothing in Rule’s book appears to contradict this.
1954-1957: Win 22K replaced the Marbles 69 for LC stocks. Around this time Lyman 16A replaced the Marbles 69 for MC stocks. Since the other M70 chamberings that were offered with LC stocks came along in 1955 (270 WIN, 30-06, 358 WIN – but not 243 WIN that was MC only) ANY 1954-1957 LC FWT should have a Win 22K.
1958-1959: The LC FWT was dropped from the catalog in 1960. Thus, it is possible that some LC FWTs were assembled 1958-1959. Since the Win 22K was no longer in use, I would presume that LC and MC FWTs would both have the Lyman 16A (as indicated in Rule’s book). Of course, it’s not clear to me whether LC FWTs were actually made after 1957, or whether the factory was just selling off inventory.
What does a Win22K look like? My best guess (above) is based on Steve’s factory drawings that clearly state that after 1948 the Win 22K and 22H used the same base as the Win 22G, i.e. single scallop front edge, 0.380″ tall. The difference being the shape of the insert (or ‘slide’), which is shown in my photo above. The shallow ‘V’ at the top of the 22K slide allowed it to be positioned higher without the edges of the slide protruding from the base. This does contradict Rule’s book, which I interpret as stating that the base of the 22K is 0.090″ taller.
In fact, when I look at ’22G’ sights for sale on Ebay, it seems that about half have the ’22G’ insert pictured above, and the rest have the ’22K’ insert. Since the ’22K’ was apparently used on a lot of Winchester rifles in the 1950s, e.g. M43s and M94 carbines, perhaps the sights with the different insert are actually 22Ks in disguise (???)
My best (and hopefully final) guess…
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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