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Lyman beaches no 5 folding globe
May 16, 2019
12:58 am
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Will a beaches front globe fit on an octagon barrel 1894 DOM 1903. It came off a 1894 30WCF DOM 1899 round barrel but man it seems really snug trying to install it on the octagon. I gave up until I find out if both dovetails are 3/8 on each rifle. Could the sight have a different dovetail size? It looks the same.

My old Winchester ads show this site for the model 1894.  

AG

May 16, 2019
1:24 am
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AG

If they came off Winchesters they should be the same width dovetail. Now a round barrel dovetail by the fact its round will have less area to the dovetail which will lend itself to stretching out from tapping a sight in where a octagon has more metal to the dovetail making it stronger or less chance of stretching out. Are you installing the sight from the right side of the gun and are you installing the sight with the correctly with the front of the sight forward? The sight dovetail has a taper and if you try installing it or knocking it out the wrong direction you will damage the dovetail and your sights will be loose.

Just to clarify a Lyman sight its not a beach sight. Beach and Lyman 5 are two different sights. They look similar. A beach globe is gold washed and the pivot is pins pressed in from the sides and the post is replaceable and has a spring on the bottom to keep the globe in position where the Lyman has screws that it pivots on and was blued with the post and globe machined from a single piece of metal.

Bob

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May 16, 2019
1:41 am
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Thank you Bob for replying. I didn’t realize the difference due to the similarity. I can now confirm it’s a Lyman & has the screws on the sides. I got it installed since posting but it was really tight. As always I removed it from left to right & reinstall right to left. This site folds forward toward the end of the barrel. 

I have also checked a few on EBay & noticed the dovetails had .470 on some & 3/8 on others. I will go back to see if some are beaches and some Lyman now that I know there’s two different manufacturers. 

It came off the other Winchester Np  so I assumed it would reinstall easier than it did. 

AG

May 16, 2019
1:43 am
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Just checked EBay. They’re listed as Lyman beaches no 5. ?

May 16, 2019
1:51 am
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AG,

I know on ebay they are always mixing the two and I lot of it is for catching the search engine. I always see any time someone offers a part even if its for one specific model they list all the models just to get it caught by someones search.

The Lyman's were made for a lot of different makes of guns so they will have different width dovetails.

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May 16, 2019
2:01 am
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Well maybe it’s the bigger Lyman dovetail on this front globe. The round barrel didn’t appear to have any damage to the dovetail, & I’m not attempting to remove it from the octagon to see. It’s on there now, prob for good or another hundred yrs. It’s definitely not loose, but the next one might be.

AG

May 16, 2019
2:36 am
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1873man said 

 I always see any time someone offers a part even if its for one specific model they list all the models just to get it caught by someones search.
  

Ebay has a name for this practice that escapes me just now, but it's actually prohibited by their own rules; nevertheless, it goes on almost without restraint, unless someone takes it upon themselves to make a complaint against the seller--which happened once to me!

However, the sellers confusing Beach & Lyman #5 sights probably have no idea of the distinction.  Of course, despite the minor differences in the details of its construction, Lyman's #5 is an obvious copy of Beach's sight that only went into production after Beach's patent expired.

May 16, 2019
2:42 am
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Ag,

The difference in dovetail size between the different gun makes is noticeable, it woun't be close to fitting.

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May 16, 2019
11:09 am
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After learning the difference about the two sights I felt it was important for others to know as well. I’ve attached a pic from one of my Winchester catalogs illustrating available front sight & described “Beach combination sight”. I’m not sure if it’s the technical term used by Beach but Winchester’s printed ad description is good enough for me. 

The other globe style front sight is “Lyman no. 5” which is often advertised with the added words globe, combination, beaches, which had me confused until Bob enlightened me on the differences & two different sights. 

It was also indicated the descriptions on EBay are confusing & misleading but most times not on purpose. The few that I found recently were listed as “Lyman Beach No 5” which is not correct, but at least the seller did note the dovetail size for each listing which is responsible but I would say Clarence & Bob are correct that the listing descriptions are broad to cover the search words. 

 640B9108-A86A-478E-B453-21649D9A1586.jpegImage Enlarger

May 17, 2019
1:57 am
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Have been searching for a photo I thought I had of a Beach's sight with an unusual patent date:  Nov. 4, 1902.  (Beach's original patent was granted April 9, 1867, which meant it expired in 1891.)  By means of a patent index, I was able to identify this 1902 pat. as #712863, granted to WRA, but it pertained not directly to the sight itself, but to a manufacturing process--the application of a metal bead to a sight post.  My interpretation of this anomaly--a WRA pat. on a "Beach" sight--is that, after expiration of the original patent, WRA actually began manufacturing them!  Or is there some other interpretation?

May 17, 2019
2:04 am
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Well I’m all eyes & ears if & when someone replies.

I hope I’m not the only one intrigued & interested in these topics!

AG

May 17, 2019
3:12 am
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Here's a picture of a standard one and one of the patent stamp which is the only one I've seen. The patented one has rounded corners. You also mentioned the bead applied to the post. I have one with the bead on it.

Bob

IMG_20190516_215040761.jpgImage EnlargerIMG_20190516_215055925.jpgImage Enlarger

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May 17, 2019
3:33 am
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1873man said
Here's a picture of a standard one and one of the patent stamp which is the only one I've seen.

Which pat. date--1867 or 1902?

May 17, 2019
3:40 am
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Its the 02 date

Bob

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May 17, 2019
7:43 pm
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This one is being advertised as a Lyman No 5. It has the pivot pin which I thought is a Beach not a Lyman ?

E975C8FC-AD82-4B57-AC60-181D5555B256.jpegImage Enlarger

May 17, 2019
11:07 pm
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AG said
This one is being advertised as a Lyman No 5. It has the pivot pin which I thought is a Beach not a Lyman ?

  

You're right, but also a Lyman should have the Lyman name or pat. no. marked on the top of the globe, though so lightly that it often takes a magnifying glass to make it out.  After Beach's patent expired,  not only WRA with its '02 pat., but maybe some other maker jumped on the Beach bandwagon.

I'd ask the seller to examine it more closely for markings of any kind.

May 18, 2019
12:04 am
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Thanks Clarence. Hated to see a weeks worth of research & knowledge go south on me. 

May 18, 2019
12:41 am
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AG said
This one is being advertised as a Lyman No 5. It has the pivot pin which I thought is a Beach not a Lyman ?

E975C8FC-AD82-4B57-AC60-181D5555B256.jpegImage Enlarger  

AG,

That is a very rare Frankinsight, Its has a Lyman base with a Beach globe. Go back to the Ebay listing and look at the picture of the bottom of the base and look for the spring! Compare the base to a Lyman and you will see its the same. What someone did was drill out the threads and made a pin to fit the Lyman base with a stepped down pin to fit a Beach globe and staked them in place just like a Beach.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lyman-5-Folding-sporting-Front-Sight-Used/303124703965?hash=item4693a3eadd:g:l3MAAOSwQtJcsMcI

Bob

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May 18, 2019
12:46 am
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 Wow Bob that’s good info. The seller prob doesn’t even realize it. I knew something wasn’t right. 

May 18, 2019
12:51 am
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What I first spotted was the pins were too big.

Bob

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