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Another member of the Club
December 14, 2020
11:14 pm
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/224277261693?ul_noapp=true

From his “personal” collection.  Note what he says about the leather case & also that no other sight will mount on this base.  Tempted to ask him what he’ll pay for another one just like it which I have mounted on a HW.

Florida, of course.

December 14, 2020
11:42 pm
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If you have a sight like this for sale and is cheaper, i’ll buy it from you.  

December 15, 2020
12:14 am
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Manuel said
If you have a sight like this for sale and is cheaper, i’ll buy it from you.    

Manual, it’s on my fairly early Special Sporting HW–the best one I ever had or will have.  Even though it’s not original to the rifle, it’s been there a long time & I don’t have any good replacement of about the same age.  However, I will think the matter over.

When you see someone asking a ridiculous price for something, the way to expose their greed is to ask what they’d PAY for another one–probably only a small fraction of what they’re asking.

December 15, 2020
10:53 am
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clarence said
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224277261693?ul_noapp=true

From his “personal” collection.  Note what he says about the leather case & also that no other sight will mount on this base.  Tempted to ask him what he’ll pay for another one just like it which I have mounted on a HW.

Florida, of course.  

 Please correct me if I read this wrong . The way I read the sellers add , was that the upright could be removed so that other sights  ” Can ” be used on the base , (not sure how many do that ) . Always have been interested in these old tang sights . What part is he lying about , is it the leather case part ?  And did these sights come in a leather case ?  As far as the price goes , every time I have purchased an old sight it was over priced according to the Missus .,,,DT 

December 15, 2020
3:10 pm
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The mid range and long range vernier came in a case but not the standard Lyman, At least I haven’t seen one. The staff can be removed from the base by removing the thumb screw but if you had the standard Lyman staff there wasn’t much call for it. If you had a midrange or long range staff then removing it while transporting the gun would be a good idea.

Bob

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December 15, 2020
3:17 pm
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1873man said
The mid range and long range vernier came in a case but not the standard Lyman, At least I haven’t seen one.   

No, of course not–like you said, what would be the point of carrying it in a separate case?  Just BS from a phony “collector.”

By the way, Bob, I think you probably know that when Lyman first began advertising his sight, he was not providing bases for them, only the staff, which was intended to fit the factory base. 

December 15, 2020
5:25 pm
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1873man said
The mid range and long range vernier came in a case but not the standard Lyman, At least I haven’t seen one. The staff can be removed from the base by removing the thumb screw but if you had the standard Lyman staff there wasn’t much call for it. If you had a midrange or long range staff then removing it while transporting the gun would be a good idea.

Bob

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Thank You Bob for clearing that up .  I would think  the sight’s pictured in the case are highly sought after and would bring a very pretty penny . Did Winchester actually build the sights pictured ? The reason I ask is that I have seen sights in a similar cased set labeled for Sharps . Just wondered if the sights were contracted out or actually built in house  . May sound like a stupid question to you seasoned collectors , but you can’t learn if you don’t ask . Thanks DT .

December 15, 2020
5:37 pm
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dusty texian said

Thank You Bob for clearing that up .  I would think  the sight’s pictured in the case are highly sought after and would bring a very pretty penny . Did Winchester actually build the sights pictured ? The reason I ask is that I have seen sights in a similar cased set labeled for Sharps . Just wondered if the sights were contracted out or actually built in house  . May sound like a stupid question to you seasoned collectors , but you can’t learn if you don’t ask . Thanks DT .  

It is my understanding that the cased sights were not manufactured in house.  That stated, I do not know who was making them for Winchester (and the other firearms makers of that era).  That cased set Bob has pictured is worth a small fortune!

Bert

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December 15, 2020
5:40 pm
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I believe the sights and cases were farmed out to a company that made them for others as well but don’t know for sure. If Winchester made something themselves they were pretty good at stamping their name on it.

Bob

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December 15, 2020
5:50 pm
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Bert H. and 1873man Thank you both for the info . Whoever made them did quality work . DT 

December 15, 2020
6:47 pm
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clarence said
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224277261693?ul_noapp=true

From his “personal” collection.  Note what he says about the leather case & also that no other sight will mount on this base.  Tempted to ask him what he’ll pay for another one just like it which I have mounted on a HW.

Florida, of course.  

Clarence,

I checked out the ebay auction you linked to, and I see nothing in it about a “personal” collection, or a “leather case”.  Please clarify you post, or edit it so that it does not make unwarranted accusations.

Bert

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December 15, 2020
7:47 pm
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Bert H. said

Clarence,

I checked out the ebay auction you linked to, and I see nothing in it about a “personal” collection, or a “leather case”.  Please clarify you post, or edit it so that it does not make unwarranted accusations.

Bert  

Bert, that’s exactly what his description says.  You think I made it up?

“RARE ANTIQUE LYMAN HEAVY BASE WITH  FINE KNERLING ON UPRIGHT, TANG SIGHT FOR WINCHESTER 1866 1873.  SIGHT HAS JAN. 1874 PAT. DATE. UPRIGHT IS REMOVABLE SO OTHER SIGHTS CAN BE USED ON BASE. THIS IS THE SIGHT THAT COMES IN THE LEATHER CASED WINCHESTER TARGET SIGHT SET.  GREAT FOR ANTIQUE RIFLE,  DISPLAY OR SIGHT COLLECTION.  ONLY ONE I HAVE EVER OFFER FOR SALE FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION. PLEASE SEE PICTURES.”

December 15, 2020
7:58 pm
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clarence said

Bert, that’s exactly what his description says.  You think I made it up?

“RARE ANTIQUE LYMAN HEAVY BASE WITH  FINE KNERLING ON UPRIGHT, TANG SIGHT FOR WINCHESTER 1866 1873.  SIGHT HAS JAN. 1874 PAT. DATE. UPRIGHT IS REMOVABLE SO OTHER SIGHTS CAN BE USED ON BASE. THIS IS THE SIGHT THAT COMES IN THE LEATHER CASED WINCHESTER TARGET SIGHT SET.  GREAT FOR ANTIQUE RIFLE,  DISPLAY OR SIGHT COLLECTION.  ONLY ONE I HAVE EVER OFFER FOR SALE FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION. PLEASE SEE PICTURES.”  

Clarence,

If that is what you are seeing in ebay listing, then you are seeing something that I am not. All I see is this;

“RARE ANTIQUE LYMAN HEAVY BASE FINE KNERLING TANG SIGHT FOR WINCHESTER 1866 1873”

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December 15, 2020
8:01 pm
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Bert,

You have to scroll down in the listing.

Bob

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December 15, 2020
8:09 pm
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 What Bob posted is called “Long Range Vernier”,it has a 5″ staff, the “Mid-Range Vernier Sight” has a 3″ staff. The words Long Range never appeared on exterior of the case. It was first pictured in the May 1, 1878 Catalog and would completely disappear from Winchester catalogs in 1886. Information from Lewis Yearout’s book Winchester’s North West Mounted Police Carbines pages 167-171. T/R

December 15, 2020
8:28 pm
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1873man said
Bert,

You have to scroll down in the listing.

Bob  

Well now, I guess I did not look hard enough for it.  That stated, I see nothing egregious about the description other than the seller may have unintentionally left out the word “Base” when he typed “This is the sight (base) that comes in the leather cased…”.

Calling him a “liar” was a bit overboard, and not necessary.

Bert

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December 15, 2020
8:37 pm
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“Dr. Don” DeMatteis is a highly reputable, honest and knowledgeable collector and seller of Winchester sights.  Calling him a liar is clearly unwarranted and egregious!

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December 15, 2020
8:42 pm
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1873man said
I believe the sights and cases were farmed out to a company that made them for others as well but don’t know for sure. If Winchester made something themselves they were pretty good at stamping their name on it.

Bob  

The cased Ballard sights look the same.  The two bases are machined exactly alike except for the length.  The cases are very similar to those made for drafting tools & other instruments, so one of the companies making them probably made them for Marlin & Win.  It’s always cheaper to buy limited production specialty items from an outside maker than set up a production line, train workers, etc.  During all the time Marlin made Ballards with cast receivers, they never set up their own foundry–it was cheaper to have them cast in a nearby private foundry.

December 15, 2020
10:14 pm
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Clarence, The probable contractor to the case and sights is listed in Yearout’s book page 170. He says the cases were probably produced by either the New York Case Co. or Gorham Siliverware Co. The sights were also a contract item, probably produced by Marlin Firearm Co., or Providence Tool Co., Sharps Rifle Co., The Lyman Co., as well as Bridgeport Implement Co. I don’t know, but Yearout offers the best information I’ve found. T/R

December 15, 2020
10:23 pm
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TR said
Clarence, The probable contractor to the case and sights is listed in Yearout’s book page 170. He says the cases were probably produced by either the New York Case Co. or Gorham Siliverware Co. The sights were also a contract item, probably produced by Marlin Firearm Co., or Providence Tool Co., Sharps Rifle Co., The Lyman Co., as well as Bridgeport Implement Co. I don’t know, but Yearout offers the best information I’ve found. T/R  

BGI produced a myriad of good products, but nothing of theirs I’ve seen equals the quality of workmanship of these cased sights. Lyman can be ruled out positively, I’m sure of that–he just didn’t have time!–leaving I guess one of the 3 others as potential makers. 

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