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Winchester factory sight equipment book
May 28, 2013
10:35 am
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I am new here and if you already have this info, fine and if not I can provide copies. I won the book recently from and auction sight and it contains dimensioned line drawings of all front sights and un-dimensioned line drawings of all rear sights. These are Winchester sights I assume not after market Lyman or Etc. It also includes sights by model from 1873 to m12 by caliber and barrel length. Single shots m1885 included drawings of globe front and tang sights also. There are some drawings with notes on them dated 1927 none later. There is a memo with a 1917 date as well. if you need any info on a particular sight email me directly at rhabraham@owc.net

May 28, 2013
10:55 am
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What is the name of the book? Can you post some examples of the info it contains. I would be interested in seeing what it has on the Winchester 62a and 62b tang sight.

Bob

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May 29, 2013
7:36 am
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This sight seems to require you to have your photos on some web site to load here. I don't do that and don't care to take the time to do this. Most other sights allow you to simply attach them from desk top files. If you give me your email I will try to take a picture and email the info to you.
rhabraham@owc.net

May 29, 2013
7:40 am
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There are line drawings of both in the book. Patent dates of 1881.

May 29, 2013
11:09 am
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It sounds like this is the Sight Book that Madis published that has a brown hard cover.

Bob

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September 21, 2013
5:40 am
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I had an opportunity to sit down with gastrap and go through the sight information he has. He agreed I could post some of it here and maybe see if anyone else is familiar with it.

Front page of the little stack of papers was this:
http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/hurint/media/1894%20sight%20reference/sb1_zps81403342.jpg.html

sb1_zps81403342.jpgImage Enlarger

The 1917 date seems consistent with most of the information. Line drawings of the 34 series express rear sights and 44A carbine sights have the "u" notched leaf rather than the "v" notch. In the next image you'll see the 64A Winchester Smokeless Rear Sight is omitted from standard equipment from .32 WS cal. 94s (although there is a line drawing of one). It's noted in The Sight Book that it was replaced in 1915 and also is not in the 1915 Winchester catalog, so that again seems consistent with something after 1915. Models are identified as Model 94, rather than Model 1894 however. I don't know if there is any significance to that or not.
http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/hurint/media/1894%20sight%20reference/sb2_zpsf03c53a9.jpg.html

sb2_zpsf03c53a9.jpgImage Enlarger

Many of the drawings seem very similar to those used in The Sight Book. There are some subtle differences in a few of the drawings. There are some front sight drawings that include the screw in gastrap's stuff for example. I would imagine those used in The Sight Book also had to be formatted to fit the pages.
http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/hurint/media/1894%20sight%20reference/sb3_zps0669f2cd.jpg.html

sb3_zps0669f2cd.jpgImage Enlarger

Here's the 62A and 62B drawings for Bob
http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/hurint/media/1894%20sight%20reference/sb5_zps8be973fb.jpg.html

sb5_zps8be973fb.jpgImage Enlarger
http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/hurint/media/1894%20sight%20reference/sb4_zpsf7ea868a.jpg.html

sb4_zpsf7ea868a.jpgImage Enlarger

I have to look through it further. As gastrap mentioned in th original post, there is also some information in a different format on later models like the 52 and 54. There's nothing on common later sights like the 22G and 22H rear sights at all. There isn't as much on the early sights either. So it seems like someone sat down and recorded standard equipment as it was around the 1917 time period or a little after.

Anyone ever see this before?

Brad

Regards

Brad Dunbar

http://1895book.com/

September 21, 2013
12:38 pm
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Brad,

No, I have not, but it is very intriguing ❗ I would really like a complete copy of this information.

Bert

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May 25, 2014
4:00 pm
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Hedley Lamarr said
I had an opportunity to sit down with gastrap and go through the sight information he has. He agreed I could post some of it here and maybe see if anyone else is familiar with it.

So it seems like someone sat down and recorded standard equipment as it was around the 1917 time period or a little after.

Anyone ever see this before?

Brad

Yes, I have a copy of that document. My copy has 88 pages total and was produced 1-17-17. It has the same distribution list as your photo and was the copy for G. Gagnon.

I agree, I think it is just a snapshot of the sights produced at the time (January, 1917).

Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

May 25, 2014
4:24 pm
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Thanks for posting that information. Very interesting stuff to me.
Brad

Regards

Brad Dunbar

http://1895book.com/

May 25, 2014
5:44 pm
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Hedley Lamarr said
Thanks for posting that information. Very interesting stuff to me.
Brad

Yes, very interesting to me as well. I bought those papers from a collector about 30 years ago and knew there were more copies floating around but yours is the first I have seen since the 1980's.

The illustrations in the Madis Sight book I think are from earlier and later drawings as there are some variations in the 1917 document that he doesn't have illustrated.

I primarily collect Winchester rimfire so I can't speak knowledgably about the lever action sights but there are a few interesting rimfire sight tidbits in there for me.

Best Regards,

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WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

May 28, 2014
2:05 pm
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Brad:

The drawings in the 3rd and 4th image are unquestionably the same ones that appear in The Sight Book, except for the fact that the side view of the 24C & 24D are not shown in the book. Could you give us an example or two of what might constitute "subtle differences" in a few of the drawings as you have mentioned? I would also think that the pictures of the front sights shown with screws in gastrap's stuff was omitted picture-wise in Madis' book, but might be sufficiently explained in the text when it comes to matching the correct sight to the correct model. For example: Madis makes note that the screw was added to the 21C & 21G, 21H Sporting Front Sights on 12/20/10 and that a provision omitted the screw on this sight on 2/9/26. Additionally, Madis points out that the later 21K (1/15/17) omits the screw on 2/9/26. Are these sights the ones that are pictured in gastrap's stuff, Brad?

Also,all of the information presented in the 2nd image is a perfect match for the described models in Madis' book.

James

May 28, 2014
2:48 pm
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James

It's been awhile since I first posted about the "subtle differences" but I'm guessing one example would be the drawings and text for the 24C and 24D compared with what 's in The Sight Book. The side views of the 22 series rear sights aren't in The Sight Book, and the text is different. The top views are also slightly different if you compare them closely.

One thing I ponder is that all the sights are given numerical designations. If this is correct in 1917 or earlier I think you can say Winchester first used number designations in their 1925 catalog but had been using them for some time elsewhere.

Really though, this material belongs to gastrap and JWA. I will email gastrap and see how he's doing and maybe these guys can elaborate. The 21 series front sights you mentioned do show the screw except for the 21D, 21E and 21J. 21K is listed but there is no drawing.

Brad

Regards

Brad Dunbar

http://1895book.com/

May 28, 2014
4:39 pm
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Brad,

You're right about the subtle differences between the ones here and in The Sight book as refers to the top of the 24C & 24D...thanks for pointing that out. It's apparent that these drawings in his book came from different factory records.

I don't have the slightest idea as to when Winchester began identifying their sights with numbers, but that is an interesting point, and maybe someone can expand on it.

The info you note about the 21D & 21E not showing the screw matches the info in Madis' book as well as he does not mention it either, but he does point out that the 21D was the Old Number 27, and that the 21E was the Old Number 29, neither of which he pictures in the book which leads me to think that they did have the screw. He does, however, state that the 21J was similar to the 21E except for the height, which leads me to think that would be the only difference in similarity.

May 28, 2014
5:27 pm
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Hedley Lamarr said
One thing I ponder is that all the sights are given numerical designations. If this is correct in 1917 or earlier I think you can say Winchester first used number designations in their 1925 catalog but had been using them for some time elsewhere.

That is an excellent point and one that never dawned on me in the 30 years I have had the documents. The actual sight drawings at Cody will probably shed some light on the numerical designations since if the numbering system was used internally it will probably be reflected on the drawings even though it was not used in the catalogs. Or, another possibility is that the actual sight numbers on the 1917 document were added later.

As far as I can determine, none of the sights in the 1917 drawings are post 1917 sights though so it does appear on the surface to be a period document.

Best Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

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