Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
1873 Sights
Avatar
Jim Farris
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
March 6, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
21
July 20, 2024 - 9:20 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

The load I used for the target in my first post was 35gr (by volume) of Pyrodex RS with a 180gr Badman bullet (.401).

The smokeless loads I tried ranged from 8-12″ high at the same range.

The pyrodex load was by far the most accurate, (9 out of 10 in 1 hole) and closest to point of aim (3.5″ high).

Were the Winchester rifles sighted in for point of aim or 6 o’clock hold? I shoot point of aim

If I held a 6 o’clock hold it would almost bring thge group to dead center, but the rear sight would still be bottomed out…

Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5810
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
22
July 20, 2024 - 9:34 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Bill Hockett said

It is my opinion based on the manufacture date of your rifle, that the sights appear to be correct. 

I’m not sure why it is shooting high.  At the time that rifle was made black powder and a 180 grain bullet were standard for .38 WCF.  Have you tried playing with the powder and bullet weight combinations?

  

His front sight is too short.  He said it is .325″ but should be .435″.  I don’t want to mess with any of my sights but I’ll take a look at them.  I also have at least one repo that I can measure.

Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5810
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
23
July 20, 2024 - 9:37 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Jim Farris said
The load I used for the target in my first post was 35gr (by volume) of Pyrodex RS with a 180gr Badman bullet (.401).

The smokeless loads I tried ranged from 8-12″ high at the same range.

The pyrodex load was by far the most accurate, (9 out of 10 in 1 hole) and closest to point of aim (3.5″ high).

Were the Winchester rifles sighted in for point of aim or 6 o’clock hold? I shoot point of aim

If I held a 6 o’clock hold it would almost bring thge group to dead center, but the rear sight would still be bottomed out…

  

Most of the old sights you aim at the 6 o’clock position.   The faster the ammo the higher the bullet will hit the target.  Less time for gravity to pull the bullet down.

Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5810
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24
July 20, 2024 - 10:40 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

I looked through my sights and I have a rear sight with and one with out the leaf. Both sights are the same height to the top of the ears.  The one with the leaf appears to be shorter from the bottom of the sight to the lowest part of the notch.  The problem is there is a slot for the elevator right where I want to measure.  It does appear that the one with the leaf is shorter from the notch in the sight to the bottom by about .012″.  This one should lower your point of impact.  The only regular front sight I have is a repo.  It is .381″ tall but is not two tone.

The sights with the leaf are much easier to make the notch lower.

I won’t sell any of my sights.  I keep them just in case.

Avatar
Jim Farris
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
March 6, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
25
July 21, 2024 - 12:33 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Thanks, I appreciate the info.

Avatar
tim tomlinson
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 886
Member Since:
September 19, 2014
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
26
July 21, 2024 - 3:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Jim,  If you wish to experiment and not do anything permanent to your existing sights (which seem to be correct), take a bit of brass wire and glue to the top of your existing front sight.  That will make it taller and thus shoot lower.  If it gets you on target, then you have a measurement to search for a replacement if you so wish.  Choose what seems to be an adhesive that can be removed without removing blue or other original finish.  Maybe something like green lock tight?  Heat is supposed to soften it and it could be cleaned with acetone then.  Just my ideas.  I’ve not tried it on a sight like yours, but have on a flat topped blued sight on a model 1911 that worked so well I left it for years.  Tim

Avatar
oldcrankyyankee
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 924
Member Since:
February 17, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
27
July 21, 2024 - 3:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Not for nothing he did say he was shooting at 25 yards. I shoot at a 25 yard target here at the house and I EXPECT it to be high by various amounts based on the caliber. But when I shoot my 100 and 125 yarders I get the boiler room every time. Mind you I am shooting 1886’s and 71’s. just a thought.

Avatar
Tedk
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 737
Member Since:
August 27, 2014
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
28
July 21, 2024 - 4:25 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

Pauline’s reference book, Winchester Repeating Arms Co., Standard Sight Equipment, January 1,1917 may help to provide definitive answers and eliminate any speculation regarding the op’s question(s) currently under discussion in this thread.

Standard Sight Equipment for the Model 73 (front sight, rear sight and elevator) is designated by both caliber and barrel length. Additionally, Factory Blueprints for all front sights (including dimensions) and rear sights are also in the book

“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”

President Harry S. Truman

Avatar
Jim Farris
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
March 6, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
29
July 21, 2024 - 4:26 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

tim tomlinson said
Jim,  If you wish to experiment and not do anything permanent to your existing sights (which seem to be correct), take a bit of brass wire and glue to the top of your existing front sight.  That will make it taller and thus shoot lower.  If it gets you on target, then you have a measurement to search for a replacement if you so wish.  Choose what seems to be an adhesive that can be removed without removing blue or other original finish.  Maybe something like green lock tight?  Heat is supposed to soften it and it could be cleaned with acetone then.  Just my ideas.  I’ve not tried it on a sight like yours, but have on a flat topped blued sight on a model 1911 that worked so well I left it for years.  Tim

  

Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll keep it in mind.

Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5810
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
30
July 21, 2024 - 5:01 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

 

Tedk said
Pauline’s reference book, Winchester Repeating Arms Co., Standard Sight Equipment, January 1,1917 may help to provide definitive answers and eliminate any speculation regarding the op’s question(s) currently under discussion in this thread.

Standard Sight Equipment for the Model 73 (front sight, rear sight and elevator) is designated by both caliber and barrel length. Additionally, Factory Blueprints for all front sights (including dimensions) and rear sights are also in the book

  

Great Idea, I forgot about her book.  The book shows 9 21’s. A to J, no I.  The 21 H with screw, later version of the one with no screw, is .435″ just as Stroebel said.  She does not show the earliest 21 with no screw.  Her book does not show any info on the 1866.  Stroebel’s book says the 66 used a 21, no suffix.  I bet this is the one with no screw.

oldcrankyyankee brought up a good point too.  I would shoot at 100 yds and see what is going on before I make any changes.  If you look at the early sight books the rear sight is graduated from 50 to 300 yards.

Avatar
Jim Farris
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
March 6, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
31
July 21, 2024 - 8:24 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I’ve fired it out to 100yds, still higher then should be expected with the rear sight bottomed out.

By my rough calculations +3.5″ at 25 yds equates to @135 yrd zero with no ability to lower it.

I found a steel 21H sight w/ screw, probably buy it and try it.

Avatar
Chuck
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5810
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32
July 22, 2024 - 5:04 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I have removed the elevator a few times to get lower.

However this works out DO NOT get rid of the earlier rear sight.  Someday you may need it. 

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 4623
Currently Online: tim tomlinson, Tedk, [email protected]
Guest(s) 119
Top Posters:
clarence: 7119
TXGunNut: 6408
Chuck: 5810
steve004: 5173
1873man: 4698
deerhunter: 2694
Big Larry: 2549
twobit: 2493
mrcvs: 2194
Maverick: 2029
Newest Members:
Temomar83
ross
Model94-2025
R.E. Moore
sjGUESTEST
WindsurfAruba
cedar swamp savage
tradecraft
Weida78
Alby
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 18
Topics: 14716
Posts: 131653

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 2057
Members: 9983
Moderators: 3
Admins: 4
Administrators: Mike Hager, Bert H., JWA, SethJ
Moderators: Rob Kassab, Brad Dunbar, Heather
Navigation