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December 9, 2002
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Found this interesting, as the, “Winchester”, roll mark, appears to be, double stamped.(4 th picture)
Anthony
May 23, 2009
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I’m not seeing what your seeing. Looks like a regular set of markings to me.
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
July 8, 2012
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Anthony,
I saw that shotgun as well. The rollmark looks buffed out to me. I don’t know much about the Model 12’s, but from what I’ve heard and read, the 28 gauge model 12 is the most faked. Not saying this is one of them, but I’d be careful and would want expert opinion before I bought one.
Al
December 9, 2002
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Maverick said
I’m not seeing what your seeing. Looks like a regular set of markings to me.
The, “W’, and the, “R”, in Winchester looks to be double struck to me, when I blow up the picture to several larger sizes for enhanced viewing. Almost like seeing double.
tionesta1 said
Anthony,I saw that shotgun as well. The rollmark looks buffed out to me. I don’t know much about the Model 12’s, but from what I’ve heard and read, the 28 gauge model 12 is the most faked. Not saying this is one of them, but I’d be careful and would want expert opinion before I bought one.
Al
I’m no expert on the Winchester Shotguns either, I just found that interesting, on the address. Maybe it was buffed out, and possibly re worked on those two letters some how, as I’m not sure how you would do that without the proper roll die!
Anthony
July 8, 2012
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Good point Anthony.
April 30, 2023
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Before y’all posted it looked buffed and re-struck to me too, definitely suspect, but I’ve not seen other 28ga. model 12s.
Are those British or some other proof marks above the model/caliber marks?
December 9, 2002
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Jeremy,
I wasn’t able to see those marks clearly to be able to distinguish what they are. I took is as lint from a rag that was used to wipe it off. Possibly!
Anthony
January 20, 2023
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There are probably more phony 28 gauge Model 12 guns in circulation than real ones.
A favorite trick is to alter the “0” in the “20” stamped on the breech face of a 20 gauge receiver by stamping another “0” on top of the existing “0”. Any difference in height between the “2” and the putative “8” is a big red flag.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 30, 2023
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Zebulon said
There are probably more phony 28 gauge Model 12 guns in circulation than real ones.A favorite trick is to alter the “0” in the “20” stamped on the breech face of a 20 gauge receiver by stamping another “0” on top of the existing “0”. Any difference in height between the “2” and the putative “8” is a big red flag.
Bill, they do that to make the 20 a “28”? I would think that would stand out like a sore thumb.
December 25, 2016
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Zebulon hit the nail on head. Esp. 28 gauge guns, seek the opinions of real experts if considering one.There may be more fakes out there than real deal Winchesters. M12’s can be dangerous to ones financial well being, no factory records exist. There are some piecemeal records, like Pauline has with copies of custom shop records and more. I would pay for her opinion prior to plunking down the dollars for a 28 gauge M12. Very cheap insurance, like my brother sez…a fool and his money are some party. When you are looking at thousands of dollars a couple hundred for an experts opinion is money well spent. You just might learn the gun is worth WAY MORE than the seller is asking. At minimum you can add to the guns “story” with an experts opinion. Unlike a story, a real expert can provide documentation. Never BUY a story, only buy the gun.
January 20, 2023
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Rick, I’m going to add your comment to my short list of “How Not To Be The Food”
“Don’t buy the story; buy just the gun.”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
March 23, 2010
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I have heard that statement may times of ,”Don’t buy the story,buy the gun’.
However ,sometimes a good story “if proven” ,adds a lot to the gun.
January 20, 2023
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True, but at least in Texas, the expression “story” contains a hint of “pulling the long bow.” As in, “That’s just a story.”
I’d call what Bubba said his great uncle Cletus told him a “story” and a Cody letter “evidence”. I’m not sure what I’d call a sworn affidavit signed by Cletus before a Notary — though probably not “evidence.”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
September 19, 2014
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Bottom line is that many, auctions included, serve up a word salad and hope some sticks and lights a fire of desire in a potential buyer. Few “stories” provide real documented evidence. My opinion for what its worth. Tim
December 25, 2016
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It is a good thing the Chinese are not building knock off classic Winchester shotguns. I follow the watch collector market. My 40th birthday has been a minute or so ago. Back then my wife bought me a Rolex for my 40th. We had no clue what a good investment that watch would prove to be.
China is building fakes that must be brought to real expert to verify if they are a real deal Rolex. I’m not talking the guy in times square with a briefcase full of garbage. The high end knock off’s can cost hundreds or more.
The only way I would buy from other than a Rolex authorized dealer is from a well respected vendor with a return policy. A dentist friend funded a big chunk of his retirement collecting Rolex watches. A ten year investment on an especially collectable Rolex watch made him a profit of about 400 K ON ONE WATCH. He bought a Paul Newman right and held it for a decade.
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