Winchester Model 21 Information|Winchester Shotguns|Forum|Winchester Collector

Red Cloud,  I’m curious what the present LOP is, given the wood shim plus the pad. Would you mind to put a cloth or other flexible tape on the center of the trigger and measure from there to the middle of the pad?  That would give us one piece of useful information — how far off catalog standard LOP is it now. 

As Mike says, the Cody letter should say how it left New Haven, which could have been standard or short or long.

If the gun has gone through more than one owner/shooter,  there are more possibilities. 

I have seen this configuration before, where a gun was cut down for a boy after first drilling index holes to accurately reposition the cutoff later.  From the matching grain lines,  the shim on this stock was obviously cut from this stock, then added back, likely as its owner grew up. That probably means the stock was shortened from catalogue length and then returned to it. 

Model 21 Duck Guns were seldom bought for display only and I’d be more concerned about whether the barrels to breech lockup is still tight. The Winchester 21 uses tapered cone bolts and is very strong and durable. But I’d still have it checked out and its lockwork cleaned and lube by a competent gunsmith, if it were mine. 

Mike is right that the most sensitive collectors want an unused Model 21, although not all are so particular. 

If I were its owner and did not care what a collector might think, my inclination would be to remove the pad, remove the shim, and substitute a black spacer of a length equivalent to the shim plus the existing thin black spacer, then reinstall the pad. I think it makes a smoother look and have seen several Best Quality English sidelocks altered in that way. However, that’s my own aesthetic taste at work and the notion might make another Model 21 fancier or a  conventional collector faint. 

It looks to me like a very desirable gun.

Tim,  you have the better eye. I was looking at the image on my phone and failed to see where the grain lines don’t match up and the splashes of color don’t cross the vertical cut line. On my big tablet, I see what you saw. 

It was a credible job but the gun deserves better. I’ve already said what I’d do. If I had unlimited funds I’d see what Connecticut Shotgun Co. could do with it.  Last I heard, they have the old Custom Shop machinery and tools and a license from Winchester to build new Model 21 shotguns to order.  If money were no object CSC could restock the gun to Red Cloud’s personal requirements,  refinish metal and wood, and install choke tubes. 

I’m like the Government: real good at spending other people’s money.  

I profess no knowledge of the Model 21 other than what I’ve gotten from Ned Schwing’s book. From him, I know:

1. The barrels are attached by a long, mating dovetail and brazed in place, a very strong, unique and expensive method of construction. 

2. The locking mechanism is designed to take up wear through the use of cone-shaped bolts and is strong enough not to require an upper crossbolt or doll’s head like the Merkel or Parker. The Model 21 is hell for stout. 

3. It was a requirement of John Olin that the Model 21 be designed to endure the stresses imposed on its frame and action by repeated use of Olin’s Super X Double X high velocity waterfowl ammunition, without incurring expensive repairs. 

From the late Tom Henshaw, during a personal telephone conversation, I learned Winchester lost money on every Model 21 it ever made. USRAC made them on a custom order basis for a while but then sold the tangible and intangible assets necessary to build the Model 21 to CSC and furnished a license to use the name and marks. The build quality, fit and finish of a Model 21 largely depends on when it was built. Prewar guns were excellent.  Finish quality tapered off after WWIi, although they were still strong and desireable double guns. After WRA ceased regular production and built them only to order through the Custom Shop, finish quality improved to at least prewar standards. The guns built by CSC are probably the best specimens of the Model 21 ever made and priced accordingly.