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Hello I am interested in the Winchester model 1897 shotgun versions however I have found that it is a very complicated firearm when it comes to US ordnance issued riot and trench shotguns. I seem to get tripped up between what is possibly authentic and what is most likely a counterfeit/fake. This is very apparent when I try to compare what I am seeing for sale online to my reference materials. A few questions I am sure that you probably know. Sorry for being so wordy, just trying to learn and understand.
- Were all US government ordnance riot guns only manufactured as takedown version receivers?
- I have come across an as advertised 1897 Riot/Trench shotgun. Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t believe that there is such thing as a Riot/Trench, it is either one or the other. The S/N is E 811729, according to the Winchester site the manufacture date is 1926. Right side US and ordnance bombing marking with a high comb stock. Referencing my Poyer and Canfield material I do not believe they cover this S/N range so not sure where it falls as to authenticity.
Thanks for the help,
Phil
Sorry,
As for question number 2 I should have looked before asking. The firearm S/N referenced was explained during a March 25, 2017 post.
Thanks,
Phil
Phil,
All of the U.S. Government purchased Model 1897 Riot Guns and Trench Guns for WW I were solid frames. The WW II Riot & Trench Guns were all Take Downs. Any ordnance marked Riot & Trench guns found outside of the serial number ranges discussed in the references you mention are more than likely fakes (though there are a few that are just slightly above and below the listed range that are correct).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
They were all classified as riot guns. A trenchgun is a riot gun with bayonet adapter. Very often faked. A 100% riot or trenchgun is a high dollar commodity. I sold a M37 Ithaca WW2 Trenchgun for $17,500. Now I see they are making repro’s. 98% of the US shotgun types have something wrong with them. You have to be very careful when buying one. Big Larry
There actually were over 300 takedown Model 1897 riot guns made for the Government during WW1. I think I have the contract numbers for these shotguns somewhere. Most were made for the Navy while a few were made for the Signal Corps. I do not know how, if at all, they were martially marked.
Thanks guys.
Also did all the different 1897 grades/variations come with the no trigger disconnecter/slam fire operation or was this only available on the riot/trench versions. Other than military use were trench versions made and available for civilian and law enforcement purchase?
Thanks,
Phil
They were all slam fire.
Between the Wars Winchester made some commercial versions of the Model 97 trench gun. Some have brass butt plates on them that look exactly like the black plastic ones normally found on these guns.
Tom D said
They were all slam fire.Between the Wars Winchester made some commercial versions of the Model 97 trench gun. Some have brass butt plates on them that look exactly like the black plastic ones normally found on these guns.
In all my years of collecting I have seen two with brass buttplates. Pretty rare. Big Larry
Same here, Big Larry. I’ve only seen one in person with a brass butt plate but have data on several more. They all were made in the late 1920s to the early 1930s.
Tom D said
Same here, Big Larry. I’ve only seen one in person with a brass butt plate but have data on several more. They all were made in the late 1920s to the early 1930s.
One of those I saw was in a local gun store before I started my shotgun collection. Big Larry
Are the (C) 186xxx prefix serial number 1897 shotguns Solid frame have serial # on the receiver only?
Yes, the serial number was only marked on the receiver for all of the Model 1897/97 Solid frame shotguns, regardless of which series they were (pre-C, C, D, and E).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
BEWARE OF FAKES. The M1897 Trenchgun is one of the most faked US Military arms out there. This is because a real one will bring top dollar if in good shape and martially marked. I sold a minty one a few years back for $13,500. Possibly, the only drippy mint, US marked WW1 Trenchgun. The key here is US marked. Lots of nice WW1 era trenchguns surfaced a few years back that were devoid of US markings. As stated, there are probably more fakes out there than real ones. Sometimes it takes a sharp eye and a lot on knowledge to spot one. Big Larry
Hello,
New here. Just bought an 1897 with the idea of making a trench gun out of it. Got home and realized that was a dumb plan. So i was wondering if you folks can help me identify its year and what type it would be considered? Serial number 590853 with an E above it.
Thank you guys in advance for any info!
Phill
Phill,
Your Model 1897 was manufactured in the year 1913. You did not provide the details necessary to identify which specific variation it is.
1. Frame type (solid or Take Down)?
2. Barrel length?
3. Choke marking?
4. Pistol grip or straight grip?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Sorry about that! Take down, barrel is 28 inchs [will confirm that when i get home], choke mark is full, and stock has a straight grip with plastic cap and butt plate. Thank you for the info you have provided! Over to 100 years old and i was gonna cut the barrel, what a tool!
Phill
Phil,
If the butt stock has a grip cap on it, it also has a pistol grip (versus straight grip, a.k.a. “English” style grip). The grip caps and butt plates were made out of black hard rubber. The standard Field grade Model 1897 shotguns were not equipped with a grip cap, The “Fancy” grade, and some of the Trap and Tournament grade guns were equipped with a grip cap, but also usually were checkered higher grade walnut stocks. Can you post clear pictures of the butt stock on your Model 1897?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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