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what is the going price for 1897 commercial trench guns?
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Posts: 18
December 15, 2021 - 7:25 am

1sp_QuotePost

seems a little high to me?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/918916999

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Posts: 4474
December 15, 2021 - 6:00 pm

2sp_QuotePost

This serial number was manufactured in 1944.  Pictures show a Winchester bayonet.  There are no Military inspectors marks.  It appears on first glance to be just like a WWII trench gun.

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Posts: 104
December 15, 2021 - 8:20 pm

3sp_QuotePost

The asking price may not be too high.  A nice commercial 97 trench gun sold several years ago for over $4,000.  And in view of the fact that a real nice 97 military trench gun can fetch in excess of $15,000, the asking price is not that high. 

I do have some reservations about the subject gun.  First, it would be the highest serial numbered commercial Model 97 trench gun I have ever seen.  The next highest one I know of is in the high 800,000 serial number range.  Second, the bayonet adaptor/heat shield does not appear to fit properly.

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Posts: 4060
December 16, 2021 - 12:51 am

4sp_QuotePost

Tom D said
The asking price may not be too high.  A nice commercial 97 trench gun sold several years ago for over $4,000.  And in view of the fact that a real nice 97 military trench gun can fetch in excess of $15,000, the asking price is not that high. 

I do have some reservations about the subject gun.  First, it would be the highest serial numbered commercial Model 97 trench gun I have ever seen.  The next highest one I know of is in the high 800,000 serial number range.  Second, the bayonet adaptor/heat shield does not appear to fit properly.  

Notice this aspect of the auction description:  “AS IS”

Let me add, there is no “asking price” for this shotgun.  Someone has already made an opening bid.  Whether other bidders will come along or not remains to be seen.  Could be quite a few will come along.

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Posts: 18
December 18, 2021 - 4:51 am

5sp_QuotePost

So I know who the bidder is he is an aspiring DPD gun collector. My father (retired DPD Sgt) and I have a  large collection of over 30 DPD marked guns including a 1897 riot i have posted on here. I have wanted a DPD trench gun but never knew enough about them to spend the dollars they go for.

I noticed a few thing biggest is the year my DPD 1897 riot is 966731 and was told its a 1944 also a friends DPD 1897 riot is 9659## and a 1944 the gun on gunbroker is 966144 but they call it a 1950 which it cant be. I think they are all riot models from the same order.

Detroit long guns have always been mix masters of parts is the heat shield the only thing that makes it a “trench gun” The heat shields were never marked from the factory were they?

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Posts: 104
December 18, 2021 - 6:28 pm

6sp_QuotePost

I checked my data again on these commercial and law enforcement Model 97s and found a similarly DPD marked trench gun in the 950,xxx serial number range.  It does not have any martial markings, has the hole for the front bead sight that is filled in (typical of some of the late WW2 made 97 trench guns), and the bayonet adaptor/heat shield fits properly like it should on a WW2 vintage 97 trench gun.  So there were some later made law enforcement trench guns.  I just don’t like the way the bayo adaptor/heat shield fits on the subject gun.

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10510
December 19, 2021 - 12:14 am

7sp_QuotePost

The gun for sale on Gunbroker was manufactured in January, 1944. It has no ordnance markings on any part of the gun. Based on the data in my research survey, the odds are extremely high that it was originally a standard commercial Riot Gun, and that somebody intentionally added the heat shield and bayonet in an attempt to make it something that it was not.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 18
December 19, 2021 - 7:45 am

8sp_QuotePost

Tom D said
I checked my data again on these commercial and law enforcement Model 97s and found a similarly DPD marked trench gun in the 950,xxx serial number range.  It does not have any martial markings, has the hole for the front bead sight that is filled in (typical of some of the late WW2 made 97 trench guns), and the bayonet adaptor/heat shield fits properly like it should on a WW2 vintage 97 trench gun.  So there were some later made law enforcement trench guns.  I just don’t like the way the bayo adaptor/heat shield fits on the subject gun.  

What makes the fit on the heat shield bad?

Once again after talking to some retired firearms repair personnel at DPD years ago these guns were very much mix masters along with their m1 carbines. DPD did in fact have surplus bomb marked 97 trench guns. If a gun came in needing parts they used other “parts guns” and surplus parts to repair them. None of the old timers were really able explain who got riots or who got trench guns other then the specialized units got what they wanted first such as the tactical mobile unit (TMU). They explained it was entirely possible that TMU (or whoever) might bring in a broken “trench gun” and they didn’t have time to fix it on the spot so they just took the heat shield off and installed it on another 1897 riot and sent it back out.

I am really on the fence on this example for what they are calling a “1950 trench gun” when the DPD 1897 I have and the other 5-6 I have seen in the same serial number range are from 1944 and riot models. I guess what are the chances this is a factory trench gun in the same range and shipped to DPD in the more then likely the same order as all the riot models? I am curious if people have seen a non DPD marked legitimate trench guns in the same serial number range? From what I understand there is no way to tell if the heat shield is original to the gun ie serial numbered the same? I have $700 in my riot model in the same serial number range. Does the heatshield add 2k+ to the same model? I think this example for the price has to many what if’s and questions I would rather spend more $$ on a better example. 

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10510
December 19, 2021 - 2:28 pm

9sp_QuotePost

Joe,

I believe that there is almost zero chance that it is an original Model 1897 Trench Gun. Based on what I can see of the gun, it is extremely likely that it is a reworked Riot Gun… who did the rework is the only real question I would have. If you could examine (research) the DPD records from the late 1940s through 1950s, you might find reference to the gun and what was done to it (if anything).

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 104
December 19, 2021 - 7:13 pm

10sp_QuotePost

aerojoe said, “What makes the fit on the heat shield bad?”

Check out the link below to a WW2 Model 97 trench gun and look at how the bayonet adaptor fits.  Notice how the muzzle of the barrel protrudes well beyond the end of the adaptor.  That is a feature of the WW2 97 trench guns.  The WW1 1897 trench gun adaptors fit slightly different. 

Also, trench guns have a buttstock swivel. the subject gun does not which is an indication that, as Bert stated, probably means this was a riot gun that has been converted to a trench gun.

U.S. Winchester Model 97 Slide Action Trench Shotgun | Rock Island Auction

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Posts: 18
December 20, 2021 - 12:11 am

11sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
Joe,
I believe that there is almost zero chance that it is an original Model 1897 Trench Gun. Based on what I can see of the gun, it is extremely likely that it is a reworked Riot Gun… who did the rework is the only real question I would have. If you could examine (research) the DPD records from the late 1940s through 1950s, you might find reference to the gun and what was done to it (if anything).
Bert  

The old book for the 1897 shotguns disappeared long ago. I have talked to a few different retired guys that worked firearms at my fathers union meetings as well as one of the past guys in charge of firearms inventory was a good friend of my father but he has since passed away. There never really were records specific to the repairs other then gun was repaired check in and out date on that firearms record card. I do have a copy of my 1897’s DPD inventory card from DPD as my 1897 was owned by the curator of the Detroit Police museum and also a past member of the firearms repair section.

I think I will pass on this example on gunbroker as it just seems to “put together” for the price. 

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Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Posts: 4814
December 20, 2021 - 4:37 am

12sp_QuotePost

Sad thing about this is that Winchester collectors with an LE background would have loved to add this shotgun in it’s original configuration to their collection. Or at least I would have. I have no interest in Mil-Surp and with so many fake Trench Guns I don’t even give them mor than a cursory glance.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
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Posts: 18
December 21, 2021 - 4:53 am

13sp_QuotePost

i mean take

TXGunNut said
Sad thing about this is that Winchester collectors with an LE background would have loved to add this shotgun in it’s original configuration to their collection. Or at least I would have. I have no interest in Mil-Surp and with so many fake Trench Guns I don’t even give them mor than a cursory glance.

 

Mike  

 Take the heatshield off and its back to factory configuration. The price is crazy out of line in my opinion I paid $600 for my DPD riot and the last one on Gunbroker went for $700ish. From my understanding a real GI heat shield is worth $1000-1500 so maybe the not original combo is worth $1700-2200 not $2800 plus sales tax and shipping and ffl fee so like $3200ish give or take a few bucks. I could be wrong and maybe its a good deal for somebody.

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Posts: 4060
December 22, 2021 - 1:37 am

14sp_QuotePost

aerojoe said
i mean take

 Take the heatshield off and its back to factory configuration. The price is crazy out of line in my opinion I paid $600 for my DPD riot and the last one on Gunbroker went for $700ish. From my understanding a real GI heat shield is worth $1000-1500 so maybe the not original combo is worth $1700-2200 not $2800 plus sales tax and shipping and ffl fee so like $3200ish give or take a few bucks. I could be wrong and maybe its a good deal for somebody.  

So, 45 bids with a final bid of $4802.  With sales tax, shipping, FFL transfer fee… $5300 I would estimate.  Did somebody get a good deal?

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Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Posts: 4814
December 22, 2021 - 1:58 am

15sp_QuotePost

steve004 said

So, 45 bids with a final bid of $4802.  With sales tax, shipping, FFL transfer fee… $5300 I would estimate.  Did somebody get a good deal?  

Apparently the seller did.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
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Posts: 18
December 23, 2021 - 3:34 am

16sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said

Apparently the seller did.

 

Mike  

That’s what I was thinking. I was a little surprised when I searched 1897 trench gun on gunbroker and flaming bomb examples were not selling at 3-4k. I also sent the link for the DPD one to the curator of the DPD museum and he agreed more then likely it was a riot model somebody put a heat shield on. He couldn’t remember but thought the real DPD trench guns did not have varnished stocks?

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