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May 2, 2023 - 6:37 pm
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Hello,

I’m new to the forum.  I’m here looking for anyone who is knowledgeable and or an expert with the models, 1897 and 12.  I’m trying to determine if either or both shot guns are trench guns.  Although neither has the heat vent or bayonet attachments, serial number(s) and records I’ve been able to find on line and in one publication indicates one or both might be.  Is there any definitive way I can determine if they are or aren’t?  The 1897 mfg date is 1916 and the 12 mfg. date is 1945.  Any suggestions or assistance would be greatly appreciated.   

JS    

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May 2, 2023 - 7:48 pm
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Hello Susan,

Please provide the serial number on each gun.  Based on your estimated dates of manufacture and the fact that neither gun is equipped with a ventilated heat shield, it is highly improbable that they are bona fide Trench Guns.  If you are able, please post several clear pictures of each gun.

Bert

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May 2, 2023 - 7:54 pm
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Hi Susan and welcome to the WACA Forum!

You have netted the right person to answer your question as Bert is very knowledgeable about both the 1897 and the Model 12.  As he mentioned, pictures would really help to provide more information.

Best Regards,

P.S. I moved this post to the “Winchester Shotguns” sub-forum so it will attract more interest.

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May 3, 2023 - 4:29 pm
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Thank you for the welcome! 

I’ll do my best to provide pictures, but it might take a day or two to figure out how to do that.  I’m still working on how to display a screen name instead of my given name.  The serial number for the model 1897 is 633925.  Based on what I’ve been able to find, the shotgun was produced or serialized in 1917.  The model 12, sn 982609 was stamped in 1945.  I’ll work on getting pictures taken and posted.

JS!  

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May 3, 2023 - 5:01 pm
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Both shotguns are in the lower serial number range for trench guns.  But that does not mean they are.  Does either gun have any trench gun features?  For example, there should not be a bead front sight on either gun.  There should be a sling swivel on the buttstocks.  There should be 3 transverse grooves on the underside of the barrel near the muzzle for the bayonet adaptor screws.   On the Model 12, if it is a riot gun, the barrel will taper towards the muzzle end while a Model 12 trench gun barrel does not taper.  And Model 1897 riot barrels have notches on them for the takedown mechanism while Model 1897 trench gun barrels do not, and Model 12 riot gun barrels have a band on them for the takedown lever while the trench gun barrels do not.

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May 3, 2023 - 5:16 pm
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JS! said
Thank you for the welcome! 

I’ll do my best to provide pictures, but it might take a day or two to figure out how to do that.  I’m still working on how to display a screen name instead of my given name.  The serial number for the model 1897 is 633925.  Based on what I’ve been able to find, the shotgun was produced or serialized in 1917.  The model 12, sn 982609 was stamped in 1945.  I’ll work on getting pictures taken and posted.

JS!  

If you are unable to reset your display name, send me a PM and I will reset it for you.

Per Winchester’s original Polishing Room records;

M/1897 S/N 633925 was manufactured December 21st, 1915.  Trench Gun production began in late 1917 circa S/N 669000.

M/12 S/N 982609 was manufactured in August 1942.  While possible for it to be Trench Gun, it is a slight bit too early.

Bert

p.s. If you need assistance with posting the pictures, I can help you with that as well.

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May 4, 2023 - 5:29 pm
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I’m sure the pictures will help as soon as I can post them.  Apparently I’m not as technically astute as I thought I was.  There are markings one one of the guns that probably will convolute this matter more.  The chamber is stamped with US and something that looks like a bomb.  I’ll have time later today and probably tomorrow to try and figure it out.  If I’m unable, I’ll ask if you might be willing to help walk me thought it so I can get the pictures posted. 

I really do appreciate the help and expertise.  Thanks!!    

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May 5, 2023 - 3:37 pm
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Hello! I am also having trouble authenticating some WWII M97 markings if someone is willing to assist. serial number is 924502 with an Ernbarrel has the WP proof with a closed flaming bomb above it (I believe it’s referred to closed, it is the later style to my understanding, the same used on the receiver)rnreceiver is only marked US, no flaming bombrnthe stock is marked GHD however fairly certain the stock would have been replaced since to my understanding, only early guns were marked just US, so it should be a WB stockrn rnthank you!

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May 5, 2023 - 4:10 pm
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FN! said
Hello! I am also having trouble authenticating some WWII M97 markings if someone is willing to assist. serial number is 924502 with an Ernbarrel has the WP proof with a closed flaming bomb above it (I believe it’s referred to closed, it is the later style to my understanding, the same used on the receiver)rnreceiver is only marked US, no flaming bombrnthe stock is marked GHD however fairly certain the stock would have been replaced since to my understanding, only early guns were marked just US, so it should be a WB stockrn rnthank you!

  

Send pictures of the gun and markings to me at – [email protected]

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May 5, 2023 - 4:21 pm
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Bert H. said

FN! said

Hello! I am also having trouble authenticating some WWII M97 markings if someone is willing to assist. serial number is 924502 with an Ernbarrel has the WP proof with a closed flaming bomb above it (I believe it’s referred to closed, it is the later style to my understanding, the same used on the receiver)rnreceiver is only marked US, no flaming bombrnthe stock is marked GHD however fairly certain the stock would have been replaced since to my understanding, only early guns were marked just US, so it should be a WB stockrn rnthank you!

  

Send pictures of the gun and markings to me at – [email protected]

  

Sent! Thank you so much!

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May 6, 2023 - 8:13 pm
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I believe the site is smarter than I am.  To those who have replied, thank you very much for the input.    There is a site bead on the end of the barrel of the model 12.  But that piece also has the US and bomb stamp.  When I get the pictures posted hopefully, this will clear things up.  

Thank you to those of you who have responded.  Your knowledge and expertise is invaluable.

JS

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