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I purchased a Model 12 20 gauge with the Round Post Donut Base Rib. Since I started collecting I have always wanted one and just never came across one. I knew up front the gun had been refinished and the serial number dated the gun to 1949. The rib wasn’t offered until 1954 according to the Dave Riffle Model 12 book so it wasn’t originally produced at the Winchester Factory. The fact that the Winchester proof marks are now ‘off set’, caused me to believe the gun may have been returned to the factory for the rib installation. There are some unreadable words stamped on the left side of the rib (barely visible above the – WINCHESTER) and may be “SIMMONS” in Italic script. The Simmons company did work with Winchester when this style rib was originally produced. Anyone have ideas or thoughts to add?
Thanks, RDB
I am not a M12 expert, but have been dealing with Simmons for many years. My guess is it is model 12 field grade that Simmon’s upgraded with a vent rib. They did literally thousands of these back when everyone was shooting a model 12. In fact they are still doing them at their shop here in Kansas City area. The barrel had to be reblued after the soldering process. I know they did some work with Winchester as well, but the ribs they fitted to Winchester guns were not stamped with Simmons name as I recall. When the ribs are stamped with the Simmons name it is safe bet it was an aftermarket installation.
Stee
Thanks for your input. I wasn’t sure if Simmons made the round post donut base available to public sales. I thought there might be an agreement that they only made that type rib for Winchester and used a different type installation for their direct customers. I am still teachable, but my memory is short! RDB
Don’t know much about model 12 shotguns, ribs, or type posts, however, Madis states the following in his book about the model 12 on page 56:
“In 1945 when the Simmons company began production, round posts with an enlarged base were made. These are often called ‘doughnut posts’.”
The above quote makes me wonder whether Riffle was correct with the “1954” date, or is it another case of Madis being wrong. Either way, I’m out in left field with this issue, but hope it helps you in some way.
James
Part of my question is in regards to the ‘off set’ proof marks. After market ribs installed by Simmons or other rib companies cover the original proof marks made by Winchester, because they are centered on the top of the barrel and receiver. I am of the understanding that the barrels Winchester had ribbed by Simmons were proofed after the rib was installed. Therefore the ‘offset’ proof marks. Does this make sense? RDB
rogertherelic said
I purchased a Model 12 20 gauge with the Round Post Donut Base Rib. Since I started collecting I have always wanted one and just never came across one. I knew up front the gun had been refinished and the serial number dated the gun to 1949. The rib wasn’t offered until 1954 according to the Dave Riffle Model 12 book so it wasn’t originally produced at the Winchester Factory. The fact that the Winchester proof marks are now ‘off set’, caused me to believe the gun may have been returned to the factory for the rib installation. There are some unreadable words stamped on the left side of the rib (barely visible above the – WINCHESTER) and may be “SIMMONS” in Italic script. The Simmons company did work with Winchester when this style rib was originally produced. Anyone have ideas or thoughts to add?Thanks, RDB
I own a Winchester Model 12 Field Pigeon Grade, 20 gauge, modified choke with a Winchester Special Ventilated Rib. S/N 1394800. This S/N dates to 1951 ( Dave Riffle’s model book), 1953 (Madis book). The barrel is marked 51. Offset proof marks on both barrel and receiver. No evidence of proof marks under rib, no markings on the rib. This Model 12 must have been a safe Queen as it is in original factory mint condition. The original purchaser has long been deceased so I am unable to get first hand information.
It appears from all advertisements that the Winchester Special Ventilated Rib was not introduced until 1954 although on page 139 of Riffle’s book it shows a special ordered Model 12 with a New Winchester Special Ventilated Rib with a lower S/N than mine.
Question – Were these Round Post Donut Base Ribs (ie New Winchester Special Ventilated Rib) being installed at Winchester factory with the help of Simmons Co. or was Winchester slow in introducing the Vented Rib? RR
rogertherelic said
Part of my question is in regards to the ‘off set’ proof marks. After market ribs installed by Simmons or other rib companies cover the original proof marks made by Winchester, because they are centered on the top of the barrel and receiver. I am of the understanding that the barrels Winchester had ribbed by Simmons were proofed after the rib was installed. Therefore the ‘offset’ proof marks. Does this make sense? RDB
Madis states on page 56 of his book on the model 12, “. . . that some unfinished guns were sold to Simmons for fitting with ribs. These guns did not have choke markings and have the Winchester Proofmarks on the sides of receivers and barrels.” What makes sense to me is that Winchester would most likely have proofmarked any barrel they sent to another party.
Another note that might interest you is what appears at the bottom of page 73 of the same book, “Ribs made by Simmons for Winchester usually have the markings ‘Simmons Pat.’ Ribs installed by Simmons usually have the marking ‘Simmons Gun Speciality Co., Kansas City, Mo.'”
James
Hello
I had a friend of mine engrave a model 12 field grade back in 1977 and two months ago I finally decided to have a rib installed by Simmons. I drove down to Kansas and ask if they could install a donut a post rib and they said yes no problem. I picked the gun up two days ago and to my surprise the rib does not have any markings on it and they put Winchester proof marks on the barrel and the receiver. It’s obvious the gun is not factory because of the engraving and being re-blued but someone could assume the rib was factory installed when in fact it’s not.
The way I check to see if a gun came with a factory vent rib is simply check the end of the barrel bore to see if there is a hole thru the barrel where the gun sight would have been on a plain or solid rib barrel. Vent rib barrels were drilled and tapped in the rib only. (NOT THRU THE BARREL)
I will send pics of the model 12 in a couple days as soon as I can figure out how to post them. I just became a paying member recently wished I had done it many years ago.
Gerald
Thanks guys for your input. I just checked the inside of the barrel and it does have a plugged front sight hole. So, I now have a really nice shooter and can use the little ’20’ for what it was originally intended…..shooting! Another problem has come to my attention. The “action slide handle” wood has shrunk somewhat and the “action slide sleeve cap” is not tight. It tightens about 15 degrees past center. Any ideas of the best way to correct this problem? I don’t want to chance cracking or breaking the wood. Would it be possible to add some kind of wood oil to get it to swell up and tighten up the looseness? Thanks to all for my continued education in “Original Winchester Knowledge”.
I chalked the lettering on the rib and got these pictures. The lettering looks the same when under a 10 X magnifying lens, unreadable. I measured the posts and bases and they are the same dimensions as the measurements on my correct model 12. Any guesses?RDB
Appears to say “Simmons Gun Specialties” although somewhat spaced out a bit.
I would just contact them and ask them. I’m sure they could answer your questions. They are still installing ribs, but now are located in Olathe, KS, no longer in KC, MO.
Steve
Here are pics of a field grade model 12 I just got back from Simmons. Notice the proof marks and the rib has no marking on it. I have had many model 42‘s and model 12 done by Simmons through the years but always had their name stamped on the rib. This is the first time one came back with no markings.
Your 20 gauge has a late model Simmons rib, the early ones were stamped in block letters.
Deluxe 76 said
Your 20 gauge has a late model Simmons rib, the early ones were stamped in block letters.
Are the lines on the top of the rib striated lines running north and south or the squiggly lines running north and south and east and west?
You said the your model 12 was a field grade – was the engraving done at Simmons or someother place? I do not see a signature. I really like the engraving (NICE JOB) RR
The rib has straight lines. I wanted wavy lines but they didn’t have any in stock. The gun was engraved by Mike Dubber, a friend of mine back in 1977 when he was first honing his skills. The gun set in my closet for 40 years in the white and finally decided to have the gun blued and rib installed.
Mike still engraves and his work today is of the highest quality. I believe he was engraver of the year a few years ago. If you have last year’s bluebook on gun values he’s on the back cover with a gun that he engraved.
gerald
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