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Opinions on the Model 25?
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December 26, 2023 - 2:22 pm
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I’m not much of a shotgun guy but have owned quite a few.  My focus with shotguns has been for hunting/shooting vs. collecting.  I’ve owned Model 12’s and at one time owned a Model 25.  It seems there has never been any love or interest in Model 25’s.  Why?  Aren’t they basically a solid frame version of the Model 12?  Various Winchester lever actions came in takedown versions and solid frame versions.  I don’t see the solid frame guns shunned as I see M25’s shunned.  Was the takedown feature of the Model 12 used that much?  

Collectors generally like rarity.  With around 2 million Model 12’s made and just under 88,000 Model 25’s made.

I’ve read the Model 25 has commonly been termed the, “poor man’s Model 12” and Winchester brought it out in response to dealer’s complaints about the high cost of the Model 12.  So, to own one is to acquire the label, “poor man”?

Curious about other’s opinions.

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December 26, 2023 - 6:57 pm
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Steve,

I have no interest in any Winchester shotgun that was not invented and patented by JMB.  My collection has Model 1887s, 1893s, 1897s, and one Single Shot (high-wall) 20-ga.  My most recent addition was a decent (honest) bona fide antique Model 1897 Field grade gun.

12-GA-marking-1.jpegImage EnlargerBarrel-Address-Patent-marking-1.jpegImage EnlargerButt-Stock-right-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerFront-Bead-1.jpegImage EnlargerFull-length-left-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerFull-length-right-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerReceiver-Slide-handle-right-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerSerial-Number-36850-1.jpegImage EnlargerSlide-bar-marking-1.jpegImage Enlarger

 

 

 

 

The only other Winchester shotgun I own was my Grandfather’s 1926 production 32″ Solid Ribbed Full choke 12-ga.

Win-Model-12-1-1.jpegImage Enlarger

 

 

Bert

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December 27, 2023 - 3:02 pm
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The Model 25 is in fact unique. I think that if the Collector can find one unaltered, and in excellent condition it would be a nice addition to ones collection.  It is a gun that you can buy at a modest cost Today, and I feel that it would be more valueable in days to come.  For the beginner Winchester collector the shotguns maybe the more affordable, and exciting way to collect.  Since many Winchester rifles would be cost prohibited for the young collector.  The Model 20 is a neat little .410, the 41 is the only bolt action shotgun Winchester made , with the exception of the Model 36 9 MM shotgun garden gun.  The Model 12 needs no introduction.  The Model 50, and 59 are nice shotguns found in many different styles.  Look for high condition guns, and I feel that this can be very rewarding.

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December 27, 2023 - 6:07 pm
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Bert H. said
Steve,

I have no interest in any Winchester shotgun that was not invented and patented by JMB.  My collection has Model 1887s, 1893s, 1897s, and one Single Shot (high-wall) 20-ga.  My most recent addition was a decent (honest) bona fide antique Model 1897 Field grade gun.

12-GA-marking-1.jpegImage EnlargerBarrel-Address-Patent-marking-1.jpegImage EnlargerButt-Stock-right-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerFront-Bead-1.jpegImage EnlargerFull-length-left-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerFull-length-right-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerReceiver-Slide-handle-right-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerSerial-Number-36850-1.jpegImage EnlargerSlide-bar-marking-1.jpegImage Enlarger

 

 

 

 

 

The only other Winchester shotgun I own was my Grandfather’s 1926 production 32″ Solid Ribbed 12-ga.

Win-Model-12-1-1.jpegImage Enlarger

 

Bert

  

You stole that 1897…

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December 27, 2023 - 7:20 pm
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Chuck said

Bert H. said

Steve,

I have no interest in any Winchester shotgun that was not invented and patented by JMB.  My collection has Model 1887s, 1893s, 1897s, and one Single Shot (high-wall) 20-ga.  My most recent addition was a decent (honest) bona fide antique Model 1897 Field grade gun.

12-GA-marking-1.jpegImage EnlargerBarrel-Address-Patent-marking-1.jpegImage EnlargerButt-Stock-right-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerFront-Bead-1.jpegImage EnlargerFull-length-left-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerFull-length-right-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerReceiver-Slide-handle-right-side-1.jpegImage EnlargerSerial-Number-36850-1.jpegImage EnlargerSlide-bar-marking-1.jpegImage Enlarger

 

 

The only other Winchester shotgun I own was my Grandfather’s 1926 production 32″ Solid Ribbed 12-ga.

Win-Model-12-1-1.jpegImage Enlarger

 

Bert

You stole that 1897…  

Yes, I did get it at a very reasonable cost.  However, I seem to remember giving you the first shot at bidding on it.  I believe that I got it cheap because it was incorrectly listed as a “modern” gun.  When the auction company contacted me after it sold, they asked me for an FFL… I had to educate them (with the CFM research sheet that I had ordered) that it was not a “modern” gun.  They were rather shocked and commented to me during the phone call that “you got it cheap!”… I laughed and thanked them!

For those who are wondering – Winchester Solid Frame 1897 Pump Shotgun – Kramer Auction LLC (kramersales.com)

All of this proves, is that even an old blind squirrel can still find a nice acorn once in awhile! 

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December 27, 2023 - 8:27 pm
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Bert H. said When the auction company contacted me after it sold, they asked me for an FFL… I had to educate them (with the CFM research sheet that I had ordered) that it was not a “modern” gun. Bert H. said

To plenty of dealers, that makes NO diff–they make up their own “laws.”  I was forced to provide FFL for Stevens SS built 1880s bought on GB.  Another dealer demanded same for M1892 Krag, but that one I refused to buy.

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December 27, 2023 - 10:05 pm
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clarence said

Bert H. said When the auction company contacted me after it sold, they asked me for an FFL… I had to educate them (with the CFM research sheet that I had ordered) that it was not a “modern” gun. Bert H. said

To plenty of dealers, that makes NO diff–they make up their own “laws.”  I was forced to provide FFL for Stevens SS built 1880s bought on GB.  Another dealer demanded same for M1892 Krag, but that one I refused to buy.

  

Auction houses generally are not like “plenty of dealers”.  Simply provide the needed proof and they are more than happy to send the gun on its way.  When I mentioned that I had published a detailed list of Antique Winchester serial cut-off numbers, they even asked if I could send them the list for future reference (which I did).

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December 28, 2023 - 3:13 am
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I wouldn’t mind having a Model 25 (or a Model 50) if I found one I liked. I don’t expect to find the Model 12’s level of finish on the 25 but suspect it is well made. One with a 26” IC or a Riot Gun may make a fun Skeet gun but I’ve never handled one.

I’ve filled out 4473’s on antiques, I don’t even offer to give them my C&R at the Orphanage any more. They have so much turnover it’s probably best to stick with the KISS principle and do paperwork on every transfer. When dealing with out of state stores they generally have someone available that knows how to handle it correctly. 
At my first Cody show a Utah dealer insisted on shipping an 1873 Springfield built in 1880 to a Texas FFL…and the Texas FFL had me do a 4473. I didn’t know any better at the time.

 

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December 28, 2023 - 5:23 am
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TXGunNut said
At my first Cody show a Utah dealer insisted on shipping an 1873 Springfield built in 1880 to a Texas FFL…and the Texas FFL had me do a 4473. I didn’t know any better at the time.

That Utah imbecile was beyond crazy & beyond stupid!  Certainly ought to be barred in the future from Cody!  Aside from the extra cost to you, guns as long as that Spfd are particularly vulnerable to broken stocks in shipment.  I caved in to the imbecile selling the Stevens I referred to because it was a VERY rare gun, but as I later reflected on my spinelessness in doing so, my  remorse was so great that I sold the gun not long afterwards.  That kind of ignorance should be opposed as a moral imperative. 

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January 12, 2024 - 4:07 pm
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Based on my limited knowledge of the Model 25, I assume the riot gun version is rare?  Here’s one I ran across.  I don’t know if it is real or not.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-collectible-firearms/winchester-riot-gun-west-virginia-state-police.cfm?gun_id=102524441#sm-22

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January 12, 2024 - 5:59 pm
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steve004 said
Based on my limited knowledge of the Model 25, I assume the riot gun version is rare?  Here’s one I ran across.  I don’t know if it is real or not.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-collectible-firearms/winchester-riot-gun-west-virginia-state-police.cfm?gun_id=102524441#sm-22

  

I can find no references that confirm Winchester manufactured any Model 25 Riot Guns.  Production of the Model 25 took place from March 1949 through December 1954 (just 88,000 were produced).  The catalogs do not list or indicate that a 20-inch Riot Gun was offered.  Barring solid (irrefutable) evidence to the contrary, the gun listed on GI should be considered somebody’s fantasy or Fake.

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January 12, 2024 - 6:57 pm
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Now I know why I never recalled seeing a M25 riot gun.  So, not factory work.  I suppose that leaves the possibility that the West Virginia State Police had it modified to this configuration?

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January 12, 2024 - 7:47 pm
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steve004 said
Now I know why I never recalled seeing a M25 riot gun.  So, not factory work.  I suppose that leaves the possibility that the West Virginia State Police had it modified to this configuration?

  

Maybe, but I personally doubt it.  I would view the W.V.S.P. marking as part of “the story” behind the motivation to sell that gun for the asking price.  If I were truly interested in that gun, I would contact the West Virginia State Police and see if they had any records of disposed firearms.

Bert

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