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I have a Model 97 16 gauge (full choke) take down SN E862860 which appears to date it around 1938.
It belonged to my dad and is in relatively good to good+ condition. Most original bluing is still there except on wear surfaces and a bit of spotting that some brass wool cleaned up nicely.
At some point in its life the stock was shortened by about 2-3 inches and of course the butt plate was replaced with a rubber butt pad.
I would like to replace the stock because it is too short for me to comfortably use and also find a correct butt plate as well.
So questions are…
Would any 97 take down stock work or would 16 gauge be different?
Were there variations in model years that I need to be aware?
What would the original butt plate have been for that year’s model?
I could do aftermarket for now but would like to get it back to as original as possible at some point.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Gary,
You are off by 8-years on the manufacture date. For an unknown reason, George Madis was way off on the Model 1897/97 serial numbers. Serial number 862860 was actually manufactured in July, 1930. Of great interest, it was manufactured at the exact time when Winchester was transitioning from the older 2-9/16″ chamber length to the 2-3/4″ chamber length. Is the chamber length marked on your gun? The first guns with the 2-3/4″ chamber were marked on the bottom of the receiver just above the loading port (until Winchester made a new roll die for the barrel marking).
Yes, there were variations of the butt stocks. You need to find one with the same style pistol grip and comb that is one your gun. Winchester was exclusively using black hard rubber butt plate at the time your Model 97 was made. Any butt stock from the same time frame will fit (16 and 12 gauge).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thank you for the reply.
I don’t see any markings on the bottom side of the receiver other than the serial number, so I’m guessing it is the shorter shell length.
If it makes any difference, the last patent date on the barrel is July 5 10.
Looking down the bore there appears to be a “step” but looks more like a carbon ring than anything else.
I was probably the last person to fire it and that would have been mid 70’s. When my dad did shoot it, I don’t remember buying anything other than whatever was on the shelf and least expensive. I am supposing that the longer shells could be fired, but is obviously not recommended.
Other than the historical significance of being a transition model, is there any positive or negative impact on collector value or desirability? As a family heirloom, it is not going anywhere in my immediate lifetime but at the same time there isn’t anyone to hand it down to, so it will go one block at some point.
If the barrel is not marked, or the bottom of the receiver is not marked, it has the shorter chamber length. Firing it with 2-3/4″ shells is definitely not advised, as it could lead to a catastrophic barrel failure. At a minimum, it will create substantially higher chamber pressure, and increased recoil (which can also lead to the butt stock breaking).
There is no historical significance or impact to the collector value because it was built during the transition to the longer chamber length becoming standard. The fact that it was made with the shorter chamber length will have a negative affect of the value as it requires non-standard length shells (not easy to find). The altered butt stock is the most negative aspect at this point.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thank you again for the reply, even if somewhat disheartening. I guess now I will have to take it to the grave as I wouldn’t sell it to anyone that would not know, as I did not, that it is earlier than the “official” records indicate and even though 16 gauge has fallen out of favor, someone could be injured through its use.
Or I could use it as a donor gun (or find a later 16 gauge as a donor) and replace the barrel with a 2 3/4?
I guess that at least it can be added to your survey as a 2 9/16 chamber, 28 inch barrel, full choke.
I also have a 30″ 12 gauge solid frame SN C135795 full choke that records show as 1901(?). That one is in pretty sad shape, has been reblued and the barrel is pretty badly pitted. Picked it up at a farm auction a while back for somewhere between 50 and 100 but it looks great from 20 feet. Just wanted a solid frame to go with the take down.
Gary,
The “official” records are what I used to determine the date of manufacture. The 1938 date you came up with is not from any “official” records. More than likely, it came from a reference that George Madis published, or a from a source that copied his reference book.
Serial number 135795 is a 1901 production gun. It should have the older round knob style pistol grip stock, and with a smooth steel shotgun butt plate with the widows peak at the top.
Bert
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I got the 1938 date from the winchesterguns.com site from the link to the .pdf posted there on page 12. I thought that was an official authorized Winchester document since it was a link from their site and if it was in error as you mentioned in your original reply, it was why I questioned the official part.
In any event, the 16 gauge does not have a roll mark or any other indication that it is 2 3/4 chambered, which I assume that all produced since the changeover would have up to discontinuation of that offering. It is a point of knowledge more than a point of function since I really had not planned on shooting it, it is just a piece of family history along with my Mom’s 22/.410 from a different manufacturer.
To me, there is nothing, and will never be anything, that surpasses the 1897 as a shotgun. From the unique sound of racking the slide to the exposed 3 position hammer (and slide bite for the careless), its military history and memories of bird hunting with my Dad, nothing else comes close.
Gary,
The website and document you mention is not ‘Winchester”. Instead, it is owned by the Browning Arms Company, who is licensed by the Olin Corporation to use the trademarked “Winchester” name. The .pdf document is for the most part a copy of the information originally published by George Madis.
If you read all of the information on this page – http://www.winchesterguns.com/support/faq/date-your-firearm.html you will find the following disclaimer;
“Please keep the following points in mind as you explore these pages:
•Many of the Winchester brand firearms produced over the years are included, but not all. If your firearm is not listed, we probably do not have any additional information.
•Before the 1990s the Winchester Repeating Arms firearms brand transferred ownership several times. Any information before the 1990s is always difficult to verify.
•In general, only serial number ranges with an approximate year are provided in this document. There is no other detail beyond this that we can provide.
•Since this information was provided through old documents (both official and otherwise), no representation is made that all serial number and year combinations are totally accurate.
•In some exceptional cases, a more detailed, accurate determination can be made by calling the Winchester Repeating Arms Historian at the Morgan, Utah office. 800-333-3288. Ask for the Winchester Repeating Arms Historian.
•For any other questions: 800.333.3288 or 801.876.2711. For Parts and Service call: 800.322.4626
•For questions related to Ammunition don’t call us. Contact Winchester Ammunition directly.
•No attempt has been made to determine the value of any guns listed.
•The Cody Firearms Museum has more information on Winchesters produced before 1900.
•This late historian George Madis compiled extensive histories on Winchester firearms. http://www.georgemadis.com
There are other outside resources – including the Cody Firearm Museum — which can be excellent for determining date of manufacture and value: Click here to go to our gun values resource links.
AN EXCELLENT RESOURCE FOR “YEAR OF MANUFACTURE” IS AVAILABLE ON THE WINCHESTER ARMS COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION WEBSITE. CLICK HERE. “
end quote.
We have a much more accurate Winchester date of manufacture look-up tool right here on the WACA website – https://winchestercollector.org/dates/
I wholeheartedly agree with you and your feelings about the Model 1897 Slide-action Repeating Shotgun. I have more than a few of them in my collection, and they are a lot of fun to shoot. One of my favorites is a “D” series Brush Gun.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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