Hello Dave,

Model 1897 s/n 243130 was manufactured in April 1904.  It was a commercial sales gun (the U.S. Government (military) did not purchase any Model 1897 shotguns prior to the U.S. involvement in WW I).

What is the barrel length and the choke marking on the barrel?  Is it a Solid frame or a Take Down?

Bert

Chuck said
Here is an article written by Philip Schreier, Director, NRA Museums.  He mentions the use of the 1897 in the Philippines. 

https://doughboy.org/the-classics-winchester-model-1897-trench-gun-of-world-war-i/

  

While Phil “mentions” the use, there is no corroborating information offered.  Of further note, if any Model 1897 shotguns were actually used for the Philippine insurrection, they positively were not “Trench” guns.  The picture of the Trench Gun in that article is actually a WW II Model 97, not a “Model 1897” as captioned.  

Again, I am not definitively stating that it was not possible that a small number of Model 1897 shotguns were used for military campaigns prior to WW I. What I am firmly stating, is that until verifiable evidence is found, the military use of Winchester Model 1897 shotguns prior to WW I is just another one of the many stories (urban myths) that have been told & retold to embellish and romanticize the guns being sold to collectors.

Bert

Chuck said
I do agree that nobody has found the Invoices for any purchases but you need to read Canfield’s book.  They were not trench guns.  They were riot guns.  The estimate is 200. 

Canfield quotes from The History of the United States Army by Col. William Ganoe.  “Double sentinel posts, one soldier with a rifle and another with a shotgun were placed about camp.”  “Maj. Thomas Bundt confirms that soldiers used the shotgun as the weapon of choice in close quarter combat.”

  

I have read Canfield’s book… but I find that number (as small as it is) to be a hard stretch.  In my 30+ year survey of the Model 1897, the number of Riot Guns manufactured in the early production years for the Model 1897 is very small.

To preface my previous comment, production of the Model 1897 began in early June 1897 (at serial number 34141). Through December 31st, 1898, serial numbers reached 63867 (29,727 guns).  In that same production run, there are < 40 Riot Guns listed in the factory ledger records.  Winchester was not yet manufacturing the Riot Guns as a regular course of business, and apparently only when a specific order was received for them. 

In my research of the factory ledger records and the information I have compiled in my research survey, the first significant size batch of Model 1897 Riot Guns began at serial number 93000 (February 1900), and these were nearly all Standard (field) grade guns that were already in warehouse stock but pulled back (sent to Russ) to be converted to 20-inch Riot Guns (in the March – June 1900 time period).  This large batch of factory converted Riot Guns are believed to have been ordered by the State of Texas to arm the Police and militia that was deployed to quell the massive civil rioting & looting that was occurring in Galveston TX after the hurricane devasted that area in January 1900.

The Philippine insurrection was in full swing by early 1899, and as of that time, Winchester had manufactured fewer than 50 total Model 1897 Riot Guns.  Accordingly, I find it highly unlikely that 200 Winchester Riot guns were acquired for use by the U.S. Army & Marine Corps.

Bert

The same positively is not true for the WW I Trench Guns.  It is documented history that the U.S. Government ordered and issued more than 20K Model 1897s for use in WW I.

In answer to your question, “Yes” it is possible, but where did Canfield derive his numbers from? With no verifiable records or documentation, and no referenced information source, what he published can only be viewed as pure conjecture.

The U.S. Marines are documented as participating in the guerrilla warfare during the Philippine insurrection.

Chuck said
I got to thinking about something else he has in the book.  He shows a picture of what he calls a “Philippine era Winchester Model 97 riot gun”.  It is a take down. If he is talking about shotguns procured from 1898 to 1912 when was the first take down manufactured?  

As far as his sources he lists at least 100 sources.  Books, articles, Winchester documents, Manufacturer’s manuals, literature, Government documents, memoranda and reports.  Sorry but he doesn’t list which one  specifically covers each portion of the book.  Bruce Canfield has written over a half dozen books on Military arms and armament.  He is a well respected source among Military Collectors. 

  

Winchester did not begin manufacturing Model “97” Take down Riot Guns until sometime well after WW I.  Prior to, and all the way through WW I, all of the Riot and Trench Guns were Solid frames.

Bert