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Model 12, What is it?
September 29, 2016
11:36 pm
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IMG_2002.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2004.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2005.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2007.JPGImage EnlargerI bought this model 12 a few years back and I'm not sure what I have here.                 It has a Simmons rib, which is not out of the question for Winchester to have used according to Maddis in his book of the model 12's. The metal finish is superior to a field grade gun, higher polish and a matted receiver top and magazine tube. I believe the blueing to be original. I have handled a few of the Simmons upgrades and they do a decent job of reblueing however I have seen a bit of wash on the lettering from buffing wheels on all that I have handled. The lettering on this one is sharp and crisp. It has wood that is obviously not field grade with hand cut checkering and a factory white line hard rubber butt plate with the Winchester logo on it. What it doesn't have is off set proof marks on the barrel. It is choked improved cylinder. The serial number is 13819xx which I believe does not coincide with the years the deluxe field was offered. Close but no cigar. It's my favorite grouse gun.........

 

Erin

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October 1, 2016
2:00 am
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Besides being my favorite grouse gun I'm really looking for an answer.   Was it a special order, sent back to the factory for an upgrade, Simmons upgrade or something else? It's not a catalog item that I am aware of and not having an off set proof mark is what my inquiry is about.

 

Erin

October 1, 2016
12:44 pm
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Kingston, WA
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Erin,

Until we can clearly see your gun, it is unlikely that a definitive answer can be provided.

Bert

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October 1, 2016
1:57 pm
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More pics:

IMG_2012.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2013.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2014.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2015.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2016.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2017.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2018.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2019.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2020.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2021.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2022.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2023.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2025.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_2026.JPGImage Enlarger

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October 2, 2016
3:59 am
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Kingston, WA
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I am not of the opinion that it is factory original.  The Vent Rib was added after the fact by Simmons, and the gun was refinished by Simmons.

Bert

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October 2, 2016
4:53 am
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Beautiful gun, Erin. Awesome workmanship on display in a shotgun any wingshooter would be proud to hunt with.

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October 2, 2016
1:58 pm
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Bert H. said
I am not of the opinion that it is factory original.  The Vent Rib was added after the fact by Simmons, and the gun was refinished by Simmons.

Bert  

 Not to disagree, however there is the white line butt plate that still presents a question. If the wood was upgraded by Simmons would they have used a Winchester butt plate. I have owned and handled a handful of Simmons upgrades and it seems Pachmayer was the pad or plate of choice. Or do you think the gun was ordered with a higher grade of wood originally and then sent to Simmons for the rib? I have not encountered this particular Winchester butt plate prior to this shotgun. Is it a plate Winchester used with a higher grade of wood that was ordered from the factory ?

 

Erin

October 2, 2016
2:03 pm
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TXGunNut said
Beautiful gun, Erin. Awesome workmanship on display in a shotgun any wingshooter would be proud to hunt with.  

Thanks TX !

It's handles wonderfully with the little 26" barrel. Planning on a Nebraska quail hunt in Nov. with it.

Erin

October 2, 2016
3:55 pm
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Erin,

Show me (us) a clear picture of the Winchester Proof marks (on the barrel and receiver frame).

As for the butt plate, I have never seen one like it on any Winchester shotgun. I very much suspect that it is a reproduction.

As for the wood, if that gun was sent to Simmons by a previous owner for the VR (and at this point I believe it was), my bet is that the wood was upgraded at or near the same time.

Bert

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October 2, 2016
4:17 pm
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Bert H. said
Erin,
Show me (us) a clear picture of the Winchester Proof marks (on the barrel and receiver frame).
As for the butt plate, I have never seen one like it on any Winchester shotgun. I very much suspect that it is a reproduction.
As for the wood, if that gun was sent to Simmons by a previous owner for the VR (and at this point I believe it was), my bet is that the wood was upgraded at or near the same time.
Bert  

Bert,

The proof marks are covered by the rib on both barrel and receiver.

The butt plate however has "trade mark' inscribed below the Winchester logo.

That being said, why do a reproduction of a butt plate that is very uncommon or not resembling a common production model?

 

Erin

October 3, 2016
12:22 am
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Erin,

The fact that the proof marks are covered by the VR positively proves that Simmons installed the rib after the fact (aftermarket). At this point, the butt plate origin is a moot issue.

Bert

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October 5, 2016
2:36 am
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Bert,

Thanks for your input and clarification.

I'm still very curious about the origin of the white line butt plate............ Has anyone here encountered one like it ???

 

Erin

October 5, 2016
4:20 am
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Erin Grivicich said
Bert,

Thanks for your input and clarification.

I'm still very curious about the origin of the white line butt plate............ Has anyone here encountered one like it ???

 

Erin  

No, at least none that were factory installed.  I suspect that it was installed when the gun was reworked by Simmons.

Bert

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October 6, 2016
2:50 am
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Erin Grivicich said
Bert,

Thanks for your input and clarification.

I'm still very curious about the origin of the white line butt plate............ Has anyone here encountered one like it ???

 

Erin  

Erin

        I have a buttplate exactly like the one on your model 12 in my winchester buttplate box. Not sure where it came from. I think if you removed the buttplate you will find a whiteline spacer and a black spacer behind the winchester buttplate. The buttplate is about 1/4th inch thick and has a rib running down the center inside. I believe this buttplate is original winchester but unknown as to what it can off of. My buttplate has the same lettering with trade mark under winchester. Not much help but might help some. Welcome to the form  RR

October 6, 2016
12:04 pm
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The buttplate itself is a factory part and is shown on page 201 of Riffle's book. It is mounted onto a spacer that has a white line sandwiched between 2 black plates. That sandwich spacer is not factory, but the butt plate itself is factory. Otherwise I agree with Bert's comments on the Simmons rework of the gun.

October 6, 2016
2:27 pm
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I've seen similar butt plates on some of the later model 37's. But without the white spacer.

October 6, 2016
7:54 pm
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Thanks guys for the additional info.

Erin

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