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Info on model 97
April 14, 2016
5:47 am
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PHX33
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I just purchased a Winchester model 97 I believe it's a trench model and am trying to find out more about it - it is a  takedown model ser#93XXXX 20" barrel blue finish marked model 97 12ga  2 3/4 CYL has a bomb with flames top of barrel and stamped U.S on left side of receiver also has a faint WB inside a square on left side of stock with another hard to make out circle under the WB on stock it has a heat shield and lug on front of barrel. blueing does have some wear on the slide - any info would be great or leads on where I a can look up reliable info. I am in Phoenix Az - thanks 

April 14, 2016
3:49 pm
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Kingston, WA
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The partial serial number you provided is almost useless... Please provide the complete serial number. Additionally, look for the 2-digit year number stamped on the bottom of the barrel near the receiver... it will be marked "41" or "42" (depending on what the serial number on your Model 97 actually is). The heat shield should be the 6-row style.

Bert

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April 14, 2016
4:25 pm
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PHX33
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Ser# is 932001 - I treys to look at bottom of barrel as I headed out the door this morning but it's hard rose between the barrel and tube. I'll check again when I get home tonight. The heat shield is does have six hole from one side to the other they are kinds staggered 

April 14, 2016
4:27 pm
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Why do some people XXX out their serial numbers when looking for specific info? The Gun Police could care less about a 75 year old shotgun. Maybe it's a stolen gun?  Big Larry

April 14, 2016
4:41 pm
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PHX33
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Thanks Larry 

April 14, 2016
8:56 pm
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PHX33 said

Ser# is 932001 - I treys to look at bottom of barrel as I headed out the door this morning but it's hard rose between the barrel and tube. I'll check again when I get home tonight. The heat shield is does have six hole from one side to the other they are kinds staggered 

The serial number identifies it as a January 1942 production gun, though it most likely will have a "41" marked barrel on it.  Try using a small mirror and a flashlight to see the barrel date.

Bert

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April 14, 2016
9:34 pm
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PHX33
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Thanks Bert I will do that and let you know what I find I really appreciate the help these are new to me I am finding there is a lot more to these than I thought, and they have a great history - 

April 14, 2016
11:00 pm
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PHX33 said

Thanks Larry 

By the way, it should be cartouched WB for Waldemar Broberg and have 6 rows of holes on an unmarked handguard. In addition to the proof mark on the bbl. you may see a hand stamped ord. bomb in front of it. The early guns have just the US on the receiver, while the later guns also have flaming bomb.

The earlier guns are hard to find and quite expensive, more so than the later guns. Pics would be nice.  Big Larry

April 15, 2016
12:42 am
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PHX33 said

Thanks Bert I will do that and let you know what I find I really appreciate the help these are new to me I am finding there is a lot more to these than I thought, and they have a great history - 

They certainly do have a great history, and they are very interesting Winchesters to collect.  Please consider registering as a regular user or signing up for a WACA membership... there are a lot of nice benefits to becoming a WACA member!

Bert

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April 15, 2016
5:56 am
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PHX33
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Trying to take pictures and figure out how to post them on here now -but here are the markings I see so far updated 

Winchester model 97 blue finish ser# 932001 on barrel portion and E 932001 on reciever 20" barrel marked 42 on bottom with a 6 row heat shield with lug (no markings) marked 22ga CYL 2 3/4 on left side bomb with flames top of barrel and the WP on top of barrel and reciever left side of reciever has the large U.S. Stamp (no bomb next to it) it has a faded WB on left side of stock with the faded crossed canons under the WB has sling mount bottom of stock black plastic butt plate with round winchester logo has a leather strap with brass but it's dated 64 - 

April 15, 2016
6:13 am
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PHX33
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[Image Can Not Be Found]

April 15, 2016
6:18 am
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PHX33
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I have tried to post the picture but I am not smart enough to figure it out every time I try its say I'm not allow to post links or image not found I have the pictures in photo bucket any one help me with how to post the on here from photo bucket 

April 15, 2016
4:20 pm
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As I previously mentioned, you have to be a WACA member to directly upload pictures on the WACA website. To post a link to photos, you need to be a registered user. At this point, you are still an unregistered "Guest", which means you can only post written text.

Bert

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April 22, 2016
3:34 pm
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I just acquired a Model 97 Trench Gun. I have been trying to determine exactly what I have. Attempts at dating on one site indicates a production date of Dec. 1941, while another in dates it to 1947.  The barrel and receiver have matching "E" serial numbers. Top of the barrel has the Winchester markings and a flaming bomb. Appropriate markings on the barrel. Butt stock has been stripped and sanded, I know, blasphemy! There is a very light GHD and ordinance stamp on the butt stock. The heat shield has four rows of holes and is Winchester marked. The kicker is that the receiver DOES NOT have any US stamp or ordinance marks.  I am very confused based on what I have read online. I believe this is a riot gun that was arsenal/manufacturer converted late WWII. Any ideas? 

April 22, 2016
8:36 pm
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Kip,

First, what is the serial number?

If it does not have the "U.S." and flaming ordnance bomb roll stamped on the left lower side of the receiver frame, it was not a military contract Riot or Trench Gun.

Bert

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April 23, 2016
4:10 pm
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Kip Fordham said

I just acquired a Model 97 Trench Gun. I have been trying to determine exactly what I have. Attempts at dating on one site indicates a production date of Dec. 1941, while another in dates it to 1947.  The barrel and receiver have matching "E" serial numbers. Top of the barrel has the Winchester markings and a flaming bomb. Appropriate markings on the barrel. Butt stock has been stripped and sanded, I know, blasphemy! There is a very light GHD and ordinance stamp on the butt stock. The heat shield has four rows of holes and is Winchester marked. The kicker is that the receiver DOES NOT have any US stamp or ordinance marks.  I am very confused based on what I have read online. I believe this is a riot gun that was arsenal/manufacturer converted late WWII. Any ideas? 

The WW2 riot guns were US marked exactly like the Trenchguns and also cartouched the same. Some even came with factory swivels. They are very scarce.

Hard to tell what you have. As Bert said, if it is not marked US on the receiver, it is not a US Property shotgun. A riot gun is not a good candidate for conversion to Trenchgun. The bbls. are completely different. The riot bbls. have a provision for the bbl band to attach to, while the trench bbl, is held on by the handguard. It can be done, but it won't look right. There are many fakes and parts guns out there as a WW1 or WW2 correct gun, is a collectors prize, and 100% correct M1897 or M97 can go for $10,000 or more. How is your handguard marked? With a small "W"? Some say those are replacements, but I have seen some on very late M12 Trenchguns. More info or pics needed to make an educated assessment of your shotgun. Sounds like a lot of parts to me.  Big Larry

April 26, 2016
8:48 pm
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Bert H. said

Kip,
First, what is the serial number?
If it does not have the "U.S." and flaming ordnance bomb roll stamped on the left lower side of the receiver frame, it was not a military contract Riot or Trench Gun.
Bert

930391 is the serial number. I also found a "41" date stamp on the bottom of the barrel.

April 26, 2016
9:09 pm
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Kip,

The serial number is in the correct range for a military contract Riot or Trench Gun, but all of the details you mentioned point towards it being a faked Trench Gun.  The serial number identifies it as late 1941, and the barrel matches it.  However, in the year 1941 and through May of 1942, all of the military contract guns were inspected and stamped by Col. Waldemar Broberg, and have a "WB" in a box with crossed cannons marked below his initials.  All of the "WB" cartouched Trench Guns were equipped with the 6-row ventilated heat shield.  With no "U.S." and bomb on the left side of the receiver, a GHD cartouched stock, and a 4-row heat shield, something is definitely fishy smelling!

Bert

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April 26, 2016
10:36 pm
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Bert H. said

Kip,

The serial number is in the correct range for a military contract Riot or Trench Gun, but all of the details you mentioned point towards it being a faked Trench Gun.  The serial number identifies it as late 1941, and the barrel matches it.  However, in the year 1941 and through May of 1942, all of the military contract guns were inspected and stamped by Col. Waldemar Broberg, and have a "WB" in a box with crossed cannons marked below his initials.  All of the "WB" cartouched Trench Guns were equipped with the 6-row ventilated heat shield.  With no "U.S." and bomb on the left side of the receiver, a GHD cartouched stock, and a 4-row heat shield, something is definitely fishy smelling!

Bert

And to that, you are 100% correct my friend. Where did you get your Trenchgun schooling? I was glad to have Mr. Bruce Canfield as a friend. I used to have them all sans the M10 Remington, but I did have a very nice WW2 Ithaca M37 Trenchgun. The rarest of them all.    Big Larry

April 27, 2016
1:49 am
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Larry,

I have been collecting and studying the Model 1897 for a long time, and many years ago, I started surveying them. Through the years, I have "schooled" myself, and discovered that there is limited accurate information available to the casual collector. I bought Joe Poyer's book on the Winchester Riot and Trench guns nearly 20-years ago.

Bert

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