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Boxed model 12 trench gun
January 13, 2020
6:25 pm
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Troutdale, OR
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This one went for a lot of money.  I know there are a lot of fakes out there.  A lot of fake boxes too.  Is this one the real deal?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/851017200

Don

January 13, 2020
6:54 pm
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For me the question is, Did Winchester actually ship WW 2 production guns individually in retail type packaging ?

Or, could this be post-war cancelled contract or surplus packaging.

As an example in Mr. Rennenbergs' Model 94 book there is a famous case of 10 Military issue 94's in one wooden box - no individual cardboards.

It all looks nice, but could it be top-notch fakery ?

January 13, 2020
7:00 pm
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Troutdale, OR
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That was my first reaction as well.  You would think military destined Winchesters would be shipped in wooden crates or something more durable and in bulk in that era.

January 13, 2020
7:50 pm
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It certainly had me drooling, but wondered about the packaging too.

January 13, 2020
8:29 pm
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Serial # 1034248 puts it at 1943 Production - WACA Database.

January 13, 2020
9:55 pm
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Also appears to be a late parkerized M12. Very scarce. At end of prduction. Could have been leftover and sold later, but we will never know. I had one years ago and sold it for much less and it didn't have a box, but had the condition. It does have the correct cartouche, so it was military inspected.  Big Larry

January 13, 2020
10:01 pm
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Tom Doniphon
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I have data on another late produced parkerized Model 12 trench gun that was also in the box.  The end tag on the box is slightly different than this one in that under "Model 12" it says "Trench Gun" instead of "Repeating Shotgun" like this one.  Don't know if either is real or if Winchester shipped them in boxes like this or not.

January 13, 2020
11:31 pm
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Big Larry said
Also appears to be a late parkerized M12. Very scarce. At end of prduction. Could have been leftover and sold later, but we will never know. I had one years ago and sold it for much less and it didn't have a box, but had the condition. It does have the correct cartouche, so it was military inspected.  Big Larry  

Did the Military Inspectors apply the cartouche at the Factory, or after the guns were received by the Ordnance Dept. ?

January 14, 2020
10:44 pm
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David McNab said

Did the Military Inspectors apply the cartouche at the Factory, or after the guns were received by the Ordnance Dept. ?  

My guess would be the cartouche would have been done at the factory under the supervision of or by the Military inspectors. 

January 14, 2020
11:37 pm
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Chuck said

My guess would be the cartouche would have been done at the factory under the supervision of or by the Military inspectors.   

Good question better answered by the shotgun expert Mr. Bruce Canfield. I think he is a member here. Big Larry

January 15, 2020
6:22 pm
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Big Larry said

Good question better answered by the shotgun expert Mr. Bruce Canfield. I think he is a member here. Big Larry  

I doubt that the Military would accept any gun that has not been inspected and approved prior to shipment.

Bruce would surely know.

I just looked through Bruce Canfield's book on Winchesters in the Service.  On page 116 he says "A collector today will occasionally encounter a U.S. issue Model 12 Trench gun which appears to be in "factory new" condition in cosmoline and in it's own cardboard box".  New guns were blued and arsenal rebuilds are parkerized.  I don't see any arsenal rebuild stamps?

January 16, 2020
7:32 am
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Chuck said

Big Larry said

Good question better answered by the shotgun expert Mr. Bruce Canfield. I think he is a member here. Big Larry  

I doubt that the Military would accept any gun that has not been inspected and approved prior to shipment.

Bruce would surely know.

I just looked through Bruce Canfield's book on Winchesters in the Service.  On page 116 he says "A collector today will occasionally encounter a U.S. issue Model 12 Trench gun which appears to be in "factory new" condition in cosmoline and in it's own cardboard box".  New guns were blued and arsenal rebuilds are parkerized.  I don't see any arsenal rebuild stamps?  

Not true. At the end of M12 production they were factory parkerized and the finish on them was very crude. Lathe chatter marks on most if not all of them. Some look like they had been file finished. They also had GHD and an ordnance wheel for inspector marks. They did not use this process on the M97's. Big Larry

January 16, 2020
7:44 pm
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Big Larry said

Not true. At the end of M12 production they were factory parkerized and the finish on them was very crude. Lathe chatter marks on most if not all of them. Some look like they had been file finished. They also had GHD and an ordnance wheel for inspector marks. They did not use this process on the M97's. Big Larry  

What process are you talking about?  I am not up on Model 12's of any type. I think this gun could be totally correct but I just don't know.  My main point was that Canfield says they came in boxes.  Even the Winchester Garands came from the factory a little more crudely finished compared to the Springfields.

January 16, 2020
9:18 pm
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Chuck said

What process are you talking about?  I am not up on Model 12's of any type. I think this gun could be totally correct but I just don't know.  My main point was that Canfield says they came in boxes.  Even the Winchester Garands came from the factory a little more crudely finished compared to the Springfields.  

If you have ever seen a genuine factory parkerized M12 Trenchgun, you would see it right away. I own a 100% correct 1945 WIN-13 Garand, and the fit and finish on it is nowhere near as bad as the late Trenchguns. They are REALY poorly finished. I sold off my US martial shotgun collection many years ago not figureing that the prices would go that high as the one posted. My best one was a Ithaca WW2 Trenchgun that brought me $17,500.   Big Larry

January 17, 2020
3:58 am
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Big Larry said

If you have ever seen a genuine factory parkerized M12 Trenchgun, you would see it right away. I own a 100% correct 1945 WIN-13 Garand, and the fit and finish on it is nowhere near as bad as the late Trenchguns. They are REALY poorly finished. I sold off my US martial shotgun collection many years ago not figureing that the prices would go that high as the one posted. My best one was a Ithaca WW2 Trenchgun that brought me $17,500.   Big Larry  

Larry my Military collection is very small.  The only parkerized guns I have seen were done after the fact by arsenals or bubba.  That Ithaca was really rare.  I am still looking for a Winchester trench gun and an antique 1897.

January 17, 2020
5:07 pm
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Chuck said

Larry my Military collection is very small.  The only parkerized guns I have seen were done after the fact by arsenals or bubba.  That Ithaca was really rare.  I am still looking for a Winchester trench gun and an antique 1897.  

If you are not an astute US martial arms collector looking for a nice and 100% correct M97 Trenchgun, I must warn you that most you see for sale are in fact, Bubba guns. I learned my trade many years ago as not to be fooled by some of the junk being peddled. The real nice ones are usually in collections and are not often sold. I saved one when I sold off my collection. It is a drippy mint 1943 vintage M97 Trenchgun with all the accouterments. Just could not part with it and a few other guns from my former collection. Get to know what you are doing before you set out to buy a nice M97 Trenchgun. They are not cheap. Big Larry

 

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January 17, 2020
5:38 pm
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Thanks for the advise.  I have made up a cheat sheet that I carry to shows just in case I run across one.  Missed a real but well worn WWII gun last year.  I only had enough money to buy one gun and the other was more money and a lot rarer.

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