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Advice re: Model 12 20 gauge pigeon grade
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April 25, 2025 - 9:14 pm
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I am new to the forum, but have enjoyed Winchesters for many years. I was recently offered what appears to be an original pigeon grade. It dates to 1957, has a round post rib, offset proofs indicating that it is most likely original. The wood is beautiful. Now for the bad, it was heavily hunted. Most of the bluing is gone from the bottom of the receiver and magazine extension. Bluing is thin on the sharp edges of the receiver. Barrel bluing is in good shape except is thin at the muzzle. The only evidence or rust is on the steel grip cap. The wood finish is rough and even missing around the butt plate-my guess is from water exposure white duck hunting.  The finish is nearly gone around the pistol grip. I would rate it around 70-75% overall.  It does lock up tight and the barrel is tight to the frame. 

My question revolves around leaving it original or refinishing. I know refinishing will hurt the value, but what is the consensus on an original gun that is borderline rough?  I would not consider it to be collectible beyond it being a VR pigeon.  Restorations can be quite expensive, so if I’m dead set on getting a gun with this spec, would it be better to seek another one. I would plan on using it lightly, so it would not be a safe queen. 

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April 25, 2025 - 9:23 pm
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Can you provide clear pictures of the gun?

My initial thought would be to leave the gun as original as possible.

Bert

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April 26, 2025 - 3:46 am
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If the price is reasonable for the Model 12’s condition, and you plan to hunt with it,  it sounds worthwhile. To me, personally, bearing in mind displaying perfect guns is not my reason for existence.

Bert is right about the metal. Leave it alone. Obviously you’ll keep the bare spots protected from further oxidation with a good barrier product like BreakFree CLP.  Any visible corrosion will eventually be removed by the penetrating tendency of BreakFree, although it will leave bare metal, not blued metal,  Do not attempt a spot reblue, which will never look right. Just keep it sealed from the atmosphere with BreakFree. (I use the brand in a generic sense, to include comparable compounds.)

As for the wood, I, personally, although more experienced collectors might disagree, would be inclined to steam out any dents and spot refinish any bare spots with Tru-Oil, which is a tinted hardening oil that consolidates with cured lacquer well. Take your time and don’t make the spots bigger in an attempt to get a perfect finish.  If you aren’t comfortable with doing that, skip it and proceed: 

Wipe on several coats of a good carnauba wax and buff off when each is thoroughly dry. I like Butcher’s,  tinted red or black, depending on the wood. The whole idea is to keep the bare spots sealed from absorbing water vapor more rapidly than the finished wood. Use a toothbrush to keep wax from clogging up the checkering. The idea is not to affect a perfect new finish but to preserve the remaining original finish,  protect the wood, give it a modest sheen, and allow you to use it in the field without harm. 

Missing spots of an original blue finish are not offensive if the bare steel is not pitted or wrinkled from corrosion. One speaks of use and the other of neglect. Deep scratches, dents, and gouges in the steel are unhelpful but attempts to remove them make them worse. The same flaws in the wood can often be improved upon short of a complete refinish or replacement. The former doesn’t offend nearly as much as the latter two.  

I think the foregoing steps don’t materially affect originality and would not offend any collector who would be willing to accept an 85% gun. If the gun weren’t a small bore Pigeon Grade, they might be more critical. 

- Bill 

 

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April 26, 2025 - 4:17 am
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Jay, some photos are really worth a thousand words. I have in my mind’s eye a Model 12 Pigeon Grade that has some cosmetic wear.  I ve seen a couple of those before and thought they were very worthwhile.  As you know, Pigeon Grades got a lot of extra work on their internal parts, too. 

If this particular gun is priced reasonably — by that, I mean very significantly less than a 95% gun — AND you are not buying it as an investment but rather because you want to own it and use it — AND you understand a professional restoration plus the purchase price may not make it a sound investment,  buy it with eyes open.  Professional restorations by good people I’d guess would cost at least a couple of thousand to accurately refinish steel and wood. 

Having said that, I don’t know how many Pigeon Grade Model 12 20 gauge guns were ever built. I do know small bore Model 12 guns sell at a premium.  You might want to hurriedly look at closed Gunbroker Auctions to see if any Pigeon Grade Model 12s have crossed recently, to get an idea of market price.  

I have a nagging concern finding a 20 gauge Model 12 PG in any condition may not be easy. That would weigh on my decision, too. 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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April 26, 2025 - 12:26 pm
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Thank you for the info. I only took a couple quick pictures and they aren’t worth posting. I will get some better ones today or tomorrow and post them. 

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April 26, 2025 - 7:23 pm
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I was able to get a few photos to better show what I’m looking at.  

IMG_9108.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_9113.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_9121.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_9120.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_9109.jpegImage EnlargerIMG_9110.jpegImage Enlarger

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April 26, 2025 - 9:00 pm
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As far as the wood goes, give it a few coats of Boiled linseed oil. 

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April 26, 2025 - 11:24 pm
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I’m not a fan of unmodified linseed oil, myself. Without a hardener, it never dries, doesn’t resist moisture all that well, and turns gummy and black with age and exposure to Sunlight. 

I’m pretty sure the original finish on that PG was sprayed lacquer, based on how little remains around the circumference of the buttplate. There are other hardening oil finish products than Tru-Oil but that’s what I’m familiar with and have found compatible with old Winchester sprayed lacquer. It is essentially linseed oil with a red-brown tint and a hardening chemical. It can be applied with a rag or a brush and when thoroughlybdry leveled with 4-0 wool or the equivalent, building up with several coats. It can be given a sheen with pumice or rotten stone in an oil slurry on a felt pad. 

If you are uncomfortable with the possibility of messing up the remaining lacquer, a completely reversible alternative is a tinted wax, the only downside to which is the need to refresh it from time to time. Wax slowly evaporates. 

The fact that this gun is a twenty and not a twelve looms larger and larger in my mind, particularly now that I’ve seen the high grade wood. If the rib is soundly attached. If the bore is good and it shucks and shoots, a ridiculous price would be all that would stop me. 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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April 27, 2025 - 11:51 am
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If it were mine, I’d leave it as it is.

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April 27, 2025 - 1:09 pm
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It’s an original survivor as it sits.

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April 27, 2025 - 4:17 pm
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The OP wants to use it in the field. He should apply wax.Do you really want him to leave the wood bare to the atmosphere?  If maintaining “original condition” is the Holy Grail, letting that condition deteriorate would seem to be as great a sin as refinishing. 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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April 27, 2025 - 4:48 pm
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Zebulon said
I’m not a fan of unmodified linseed oil, myself. Without a hardener, it never dries, doesn’t resist moisture all that well, and turns gummy and black with age and exposure to Sunlight. 

I’m pretty sure the original finish on that PG was sprayed lacquer, based on how little remains around the circumference of the buttplate. There are other hardening oil finish products than Tru-Oil but that’s what I’m familiar with and have found compatible with old Winchester sprayed lacquer. It is essentially linseed oil with a red-brown tint and a hardening chemical. It can be applied with a rag or a brush and when thoroughlybdry leveled with 4-0 wool or the equivalent, building up with several coats. It can be given a sheen with pumice or rotten stone in an oil slurry on a felt pad. 

If you are uncomfortable with the possibility of messing up the remaining lacquer, a completely reversible alternative is a tinted wax, the only downside to which is the need to refresh it from time to time. Wax slowly evaporates. 

The fact that this gun is a twenty and not a twelve looms larger and larger in my mind, particularly now that I’ve seen the high grade wood. If the rib is soundly attached. If the bore is good and it shucks and shoots, a ridiculous price would be all that would stop me. 

  

Boiled linseed oil will harden.  It has at least 5 added chemicals that I have no idea what they are and I’m not looking them up. Too many 10 letter words.  If you want something easy use it.  Unlike Tru Oil you don’t need to sand between coats.  After the final coat you can polish it for more sheen.  Lacquer is very fragile and will most likely attack the existing finish.  I’m not sure if Winchester used Lacquer or if it was varnish?

I’m working on a Browning 22 that had a chunk knocked out.  You can not tell where the original high gloss finish stops and the Tru Oil and boiled linseed starts.  I have to sand it at least 1 more time to get out some dust particles.  Another issue with the Tru Oil.  It takes a longer time to set up.

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April 27, 2025 - 6:11 pm
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If it were my gun, I would have a professional stock person restore the wood.  Winchester used two types of finish on the high grade (3X) grade walnut stocks when that gun was made. Piano Varnish, or a hand rubbed Oil finish.  I personally would have it refinished with the hand rubbed oil.  If properly restored, it will have minimal effect on the desirability and value of the that gun.

Bert

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April 27, 2025 - 6:30 pm
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Chuck, you’re not using pure linseed oil if it hardens quicker than Tru-Oil, which is linseed oil with a hardening catalyst.

I would never question another craftsman’s method if he gets good results and not being able to tell where the spot refinish starts and stops is as good as it gets. 

I’ve not used sandpaper to knock back between coats but prefer 4-0 wool or one the rubbery molded blocks with an equivalent tooth. 

I know Winchester offered a high gloss oil finish as an extra cost finish but I’m pretty sure it was not umodified oil; that is, it had a varnish component that made the hand-rubbed process commercially feasible. [Back in the day of inside contracting, there was a reason finish formulae were kept secret!]

In any event, I think we can agree that a properly done spot refinish can be made invisible to anybody without a spectrograph, a chisel, and enough rope to hold the gun owner still while samples are being chipped off for analysis..

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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April 27, 2025 - 6:51 pm
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Bert H. said
If it were my gun, I would have a professional stock person restore the wood.  Winchester used two types of finish on the high grade (3X) grade walnut stocks when that gun was made. Piano Varnish, or a hand rubbed Oil finish.  I personally would have it refinished with the hand rubbed oil.  If properly restored, it will have minimal effect on the desirability and value of the that gun.

Bert

  

Agree 100% on the effect of a professional wood refinish on FMV of THAT gun, with the assumed caveat that the steel.be left alone.

The good news is today’s wood finish chemistry is so advanced the material to be hand rubbed can not only replicate a low gloss London Oil finish but be many times as durable. 

Taste is indisputable but I’ve always thought the Winchester extra varnish finish to be a little garish, whereas the extra oil was just right. 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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April 27, 2025 - 8:16 pm
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Zeb, each time I posted I said I use BOILED linseed oil.  Not pure linseed oil. 

This Browning is my latest project.  I just re glued the original piece that broke off.  I did have to do some sanding but on one side the owner took some steel wool to it so there was a lot of sanding.  I use 400 grit wet and dry sandpaper that has been used many times.  As long as it will make a cream it is cutting.

The damage is done and I don’t want to do more than stabilize the broken piece.  The more you sand the worse it will get.  If it was an oiled stock sanding isn’t that much of an issue.  But high gloss varnish is a pain especially if you cut through the original coats.

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Side I”m still sandingBrowning-Left.jpgImage Enlarger

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April 27, 2025 - 10:40 pm
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Chuck, You did indeed say ‘boiled” and that makes all the difference 

A colleague of mine,  long since dead,  disciplined himself to read anything given to him to read, twice before opeming his mouth. He said it saved him all kinds of grief.i would do well to do the same. 

Nice work on the Browning. 

Have you ever tried General Finishes’ ARM-R-SEAL on a gunstock? It’s an oil urethane product that comes in different grades of gloss, from satin to high. You can build it in thin coats..the only disadvantage is the dry and cure time. But is it ever hard when cured!  I’m using on some oak trim.upstairs. Learned the hard way I couldn’t knock gloss back to satin without lunch and a lantern.

.

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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April 28, 2025 - 1:25 am
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Many thanks for all the responses.  There isn’t much listed online to compare it to, so hopefully we can arrive at an agreed upon price.

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April 28, 2025 - 5:41 pm
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Zebulon said
Chuck, You did indeed say ‘boiled” and that makes all the difference 

A colleague of mine,  long since dead,  disciplined himself to read anything given to him to read, twice before opeming his mouth. He said it saved him all kinds of grief.i would do well to do the same. 

Nice work on the Browning. 

Have you ever tried General Finishes’ ARM-R-SEAL on a gunstock? It’s an oil urethane product that comes in different grades of gloss, from satin to high. You can build it in thin coats..the only disadvantage is the dry and cure time. But is it ever hard when cured!  I’m using on some oak trim.upstairs. Learned the hard way I couldn’t knock gloss back to satin without lunch and a lantern.

.

  

Sorry Zeb.  I was in a bad mood yesterday. I am not done with the Browning.  My wife tried to clean out the exhaust hose on the dryer.  I zoomed in on the stock so you could see all the lint that got stuck in the Tru Oil.  Now I have a major project running a new exhaust hose.  It’s about 6 ft. long and goes through a cabinet.  Not sure how I’m going to get to the back of the dryer to disconnect the gas and electrical? 

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April 28, 2025 - 8:31 pm
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Chuck,

Happy wife, happy life.  [See footnote 1.]  

Tru Oil does take a while to cure out. Maybe wiping the lint covered areas with a naptha-moistened rag would loosen enough of the top layer to let you de-lint without destroying all the layers you’ve built up? 

If you’re inclined to take chances and your wife is not technically astute, this might be the time to explain your need – as a result of her wretched misdeed, of which you’ve already forgiven her — to lay in that nearly new Winchester 21 Grand American you saw on consignment, ajust so you can use its stock as a replacement part.  If you do this, do not bring the replacement through the front door in daylight where it can be closely observed. Ideally it should not show up as a debit on any jointly held account. 

Our washer and dryer, about two years old, are situated by the original builder’s design, in a very small room off the back hall of our 50 year old house, built at a time when washer and dryer machines were considerably smaller. In order for me to get to the dryer connections in the rear, I have to completely disconnect the plumbing and electrical of the washer, remove the hall door from its hinges, and slide out the washer.  Which I have had to do numerous times because of what turned out to be rotted cast iron sewer pipe beneath about half of the slab, at the cost of a pretty nice original Henry.   And termites. And then painters and machine installers.  That room has caused more trouble than any other part of this house. I feel your pain. 

Good luck and let me know your solution to the lint problem; and a pic of the finished Browning.

Best,

Bill 

 

1. That is the entire sum of everything I learned from having tried [not “settled”] fifty or sixty divorce cases during forty years at the Bar. I would eat a dead rat sandwich before I’d ever do another one, assuming I ever changed my law license from “retired/inactive” back to “active”, which would only happen in a nightmare. 

- Bill 

 

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