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I went today and looked at two Model 12’s. One is a 1968 20ga Pigeon grade WS-1. The other is a 1938 28ga. Both guns are beautiful and about 95% condition. The guy who has them is selling them for an older gentleman who used to be into skeet and bird shooting. He thinks the guns were refinished by Simmons years ago but he hasn’t asked his buddy about it yet. I looked at them for 15 minutes today and I honestly think the finish is original but I’m not going to argue with him. The pigeon has a 3 pin rib. The 28g a has the rib with the donut style posts. All markings on both guns are very clear and sharp.
I’ve heard that a lot of 28’s are being faked so I need to know what kind of things to look for to make sure it’s an original 28. I have the 20 to compare it to so that helps but what do i look for(i.e.,was the bolt and internal the same for a 20 and 28?) One of the things I noticed about the 28 is that if you look at the barrel address you can actually see the line in the steel above and below the words that was used as a guide. It also almost looks like the letters for Winchester and 28GA were almost engraved instead of roll stamped??? The proof marks look the same also. Would the type of markings on the 1962 and the 1938 be that different?
I know this is sorta all over the place but just looking for any advice the experts might have on both of these guns. I’m really just asking for any obvious signs of a faked 28ga or a faked 20ga Pigeon. Thanks.
The 28 guage in the pre-war era such as this gun was only offered in a plain barrel or solid rib. Sounds like this gun was sent to simmons and had a rib put on. Model 12-28 guages are very hard to find and one in original mint condition is almost next to impossible. I got lucky and found a pre-war stamped skeet in 99% condition. Be very wary as there are alot of fakes. Always take the buttstock off and see if the tang is stamped 28 guage.
You first refer to the 20 gauge as made in 1968, then later refer to 1962. Big difference.
If you can see "guidelines" above and below the stampings and the letters look engraved rather than stamped, those are red flag warnings. I’d be very suspicious about the originality of this gun.
I’d also want to verify the 20 gauge Pigeon. For every real Pigeon I’ve seen in the last 10 years I’ve seen about a dozen fakes.
Buyer beware!
The Pigeon is a 1962 gun, not a 68. Don’t know why I put 68 but I did. I’m not to worried about the pigeon. I’m about 99% sure it is legit. The 28 was the main one. Just from the forum I know the rib had to be added since its pre war. If it was a simmons installed piece it makes a little difference but we’ll see what he asks before I go any further. Thanks guys.
Anyone know when the vent ribs were introduced? I had him removed buttstock for both and they were correctly marked.
Mike,
I believe that the first Winchester Ventilated Rib was patented in 1919. I will look through my copy of Dave Riffle’s book later this evening.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Like I said earlier, I had him take the stocks off and both guns are correctly marked. I took a few pictures to see what else you guys can see. If they didn’t offer vent rib pre war then when was it offered for these guns and what is this one? Any other thoughts?
Heres the 20. It’s a WS-1 gun.
http://s389.photobucket.com/user/6101975/media/pigeon/20140130_170626_zps63086e84.jpg.html
http://s389.photobucket.com/user/6101975/media/pigeon/20140130_170549_zps4a67e002.jpg.html
http://s389.photobucket.com/user/6101975/media/pigeon/20140130_170616_zps3d39bd46.jpg.html
http://s389.photobucket.com/user/6101975/media/pigeon/20140130_170645_zps0dc0f40d.jpg.html
http://s389.photobucket.com/user/6101975/media/pigeon/20140130_170700_zps27c4311d.jpg.html
http://s389.photobucket.com/user/6101975/media/pigeon/20140130_170723_zps0a4f89c0.jpg.html
Mike,
The original Winchester Ventilated Milled Rib was patented November 25, 1919. It is not like the one on your 28 Gauge.
Winchester introduced a new style Vent Rib in 1951, and it matches the one on your 28 Gauge. What is the serial number?
I also noted that the butt plate screws are not original. I suspect that the 28 Guage gun is not authentic.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
From what I’m reading elsewhere I agree with you. It looks like the 28ga is a Simmons refinished pre war gun. The rib is definitely one of theres and the stocks look it also. The cool thing is that it is still an original 28ga. The thing that has me off is that the barrel is an original era barrel that is proofed to the side as is the receiver. That tells me that the gun was a ribbed gun. So did Simmons remove a solid rib and replace with a vent rib if thats the case?
Mike,
What is the 2-digit year number on the bottom of the barrel? What is the serial number on the gun?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
752474 is the serial number. I haven’t disassembled it far enough to see the barrel date. Can it be seen without a dissasembly? Thanks.
Mike,
That makes it a January 1937 gun.
It depends how close the magazine tube is to the barrel on the receiver end. On many of the WW II era Model 12 and Model 97 shotguns, I can see the date using a flashlight. It is located a few inches forward of the receiver frame.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
28 gauge: Incorrect buttplate and incorrect screws for a 1938 M12. Too many "red flags" on this one.
Pigeon Grade: Vent rib posts at rear look much too high and duckbill too thick. Grip checkering lacks the rear projection that Pigeons had. Grip cap also incorrect? Hard to tell from photos.
mikec said
Do all the pigeon grade guns have a jeweled follower and bolt?
Absolutely, except for a tiny number special ordered without (and impossible to document if you have one).
I listed the 28g a. Thanks guys. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=394452501
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