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1959 Model 12 16ga
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December 20, 2023 - 2:56 am
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This one followed me home today. I hope it’s a good one. 
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December 20, 2023 - 3:00 am
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December 20, 2023 - 3:04 am
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December 20, 2023 - 3:08 am
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December 20, 2023 - 3:09 am
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December 20, 2023 - 6:15 pm
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Does this look like original finish to you guys? 

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December 20, 2023 - 8:24 pm
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1badf350 said
Does this look like original finish to you guys? 

Yes it does.

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December 20, 2023 - 8:31 pm
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Bert H. said

1badf350 said

Does this look like original finish to you guys? 

Yes it does.

  

Thanks Bert! Hope all is well with you. Happy Holidays to you and your family!

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December 20, 2023 - 10:53 pm
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Bert H. said

1badf350 said

Does this look like original finish to you guys? 

Yes it does.

  

Bert,  to my relatively uneducated eye, this M12’s finish looks original, as well.  For my benefit, could you please lay down a brief, point by point summary, that led to your expert’s conclusion it’s original? This is how we learn. Thanks, Bill

- Bill 

 

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December 21, 2023 - 2:03 am
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Zebulon said For my benefit, could you please lay down a brief, point by point summary, that led to your expert’s conclusion it’s original? This is how we learn.
  

There’s just no reason to suspect it’s NOT original.  It’s not “perfect.”  Moderate blue wear in exactly the places it would occur in normal (but reasonably careful) usage.  1959 isn’t ancient antiquity (except with respect to public morality); to me, it’s “yesterday.”

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December 21, 2023 - 2:51 am
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Zebulon said

Bert H. said

1badf350 said

Does this look like original finish to you guys? 

Yes it does.

Bert,  to my relatively uneducated eye, this M12’s finish looks original, as well.  For my benefit, could you please lay down a brief, point by point summary, that led to your expert’s conclusion it’s original? This is how we learn. Thanks, Bill

Bill,

Please read this old topic post – Tips on Buying an old Winchester | Winchester Rifles | Forum | Winchester CollectorWinchester Collector

There were also similar articles published in the WACA Collector magazine.

Bert

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December 21, 2023 - 6:58 pm
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Clarence, It may be the lighting but the hue and reflectivity of the receiver’s finish seems markedly different from that of the barrel: the receiver’s finish appears flatter and blacker, as if smoke blued rather than Dulite, although the gun is late for that process. I did note the encouraging wear patterns. 

Bert, Thank you for the reference. I should have remembered the topic is on the list of topics. 

Something I read in the Winchester shotgun book written by that University of Illinois Carbondale professor (name ?) stuck with me. It was to this effect: If a gun is properly and expertly processed,  it can be impossible to tell whether it’s finish is original. 

- Bill 

 

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December 21, 2023 - 7:20 pm
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Zebulon said
Something I read in the Winchester shotgun book written by that University of Illinois Carbondale professor (name ?) stuck with me. It was to this effect: If a gun is properly and expertly processed,  it can be impossible to tell whether it’s finish is original.  

Well, maybe, but I’m skeptical.  The very best of the restorers like Turnbull come close, but even their work has a crispness & gleam that arouses suspicion, even if you can’t pick out a single fault.

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December 21, 2023 - 7:38 pm
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clarence said

Zebulon said

Something I read in the Winchester shotgun book written by that University of Illinois Carbondale professor (name ?) stuck with me. It was to this effect: If a gun is properly and expertly processed,  it can be impossible to tell whether it’s finish is original.  

Well, maybe, but I’m skeptical.  The very best of the restorers like Turnbull come close, but even their work has a crispness & gleam that arouses suspicion, even if you can’t pick out a single fault.

  

The book is Winchester Shotguns and Shotshells, Krause Publications 1995. Author Ronald W. Stadt. 

I suggest Stadt’s “properly processed” can include the introduction of subtle but artificial wear patterns, post Turnbull  OR simply carrying in the field for a year post restoration.

 Turnbull is in the business of “making new again”, which is a legitimate market. To his credit, I believe he marks his work to discourage fraud. 

Granted very few have the necessary skill and even I have held in my hands “99%” Model 21 Skeet guns that would glow in the dark.

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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December 21, 2023 - 8:20 pm
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Zebulon said

I suggest Stadt’s “properly processed” can include the introduction of subtle but artificial wear patterns, post Turnbull  OR simply carrying in the field for a year post restoration.

 Turnbull is in the business of “making new again”, which is a legitimate market. To his credit, I believe he marks his work to discourage fraud. 

More power to him, whom I remember well from the old Syracuse Gun Show with samples of his work displayed on one table; that’s 40+ yrs ago, & I’d never seen anything to compare.  I’m glad there are enough fat-cats to keep alive the talent of all those working for him, but I wouldn’t want one of those re-builds, even if I could afford one.

I’ve had some experience with artificial aging, to the extent of thinning the blue on the corners of oct brls, & rubbing down case-colored rcvrs.  Don’t think it would fool a real expert who looked closely, but greatly improves general appearance.

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December 21, 2023 - 9:48 pm
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clarence said

Zebulon said

I suggest Stadt’s “properly processed” can include the introduction of subtle but artificial wear patterns, post Turnbull  OR simply carrying in the field for a year post restoration.

 Turnbull is in the business of “making new again”, which is a legitimate market. To his credit, I believe he marks his work to discourage fraud. 

More power to him, whom I remember well from the old Syracuse Gun Show with samples of his work displayed on one table; that’s 40+ yrs ago, & I’d never seen anything to compare.  I’m glad there are enough fat-cats to keep alive the talent of all those working for him, but I wouldn’t want one of those re-builds, even if I could afford one.

I’ve had some experience with artificial aging, to the extent of thinning the blue on the corners of oct brls, & rubbing down case-colored rcvrs.  Don’t think it would fool a real expert who looked closely, but greatly improves general appearance.

  

As we know from history, condition enhancement doesn’t usually get passed on by a real expert at point of sale while  the rube [excuse me, “buyer “] is holding The Precious in his hands.  Unless it’s a very high dollar item and the more cautious rube has engaged a “real expert” — in which case we need to take a real close look at the expert and who his friends might be. It’s a wicked World. 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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December 21, 2023 - 11:02 pm
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The fact that the gun in question is a standard Field grade Model 12 in an unpopular gauge is of note.  The people who spend their time and effort refinishing old Winchesters do not waste their $$$ on refinishing guns like this one.

Bert 

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December 22, 2023 - 12:15 am
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Bert H. said
The fact that the gun in question is a standard Field grade Model 12 in an unpopular gauge is of note.  The people who spend their time and effort refinishing old Winchesters do not waste their $$$ on refinishing guns like this one.

Bert 

  

Ouch LOL 

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December 22, 2023 - 1:14 am
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Ouch LOL 1badf350 said

Illustrates the fact that scarcity alone does not enhance value; otherwise, scarcer 16s would be worth more than 12s, & Marlins worth more than Wins.  Demand, or popularity, is the sole determining factor.  Some 16s, like doubles, were built on lighter receivers than 12s, but if they’re the same size & wt, there’s no advantage to a 16.  I grew up shooting a Browning Sweet Sixteen, which I think had a lighter rcvr than Browning’s 12.  Many yrs ago it was stolen, but if I had it now, I’d be wondering where to buy ammo.

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December 22, 2023 - 1:15 am
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My point was not to denigrate your gun, but to simply point out that it is very rare that someone refinishes a standard Model 12 Field grade gun with the intent to defraud a potential buyer.

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