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1918 Model 1912 Riot Gun, US Marked - Real Deal?
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May 22, 2017 - 2:42 pm
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A fellow carried it in (and out) of a gun show this weekend, looking for a hefty price.  I asked him to send me pics.  Serial Number 165747, Take down configuration, US ordnance stamped.

Your thoughts on this gun would be greatly appreciated.

First, I had the gun in hand for a very close inspection.  It did not have the glossy layer of oil at the time, as it appears in the pics.  Finish is deep and rich, but not quite as reflective as depicted.  Color of bluing is spot on.

Two of the most important pics are either absent or blurry, so I will accurately describe.

1.  The serial numbers were not well provided.  So, on the receiver, the serial was applied and buffed before bluing.  On the takedown portion of the barrel, the serial number clearly cuts through the bluing.  Font is exact match.  I cropped and sharpened one picture which does show the last two digits on both receiver and barrel.

2.  The blurry pic of the proof marks can be described similarly.  The proof on top of the receiver was applied and buffed before bluing.  The proof on the barrel cuts through the bluing.   The flaming bomb (WWI style with concentric circle inside bomb) also cuts through bluing.

My other observations during inspection are as follows:

– Swivel band added to the front, sling swivel added to rear.

– No evidence of ever having a bayonet lug

– Wood is unsanded and proud over receiver metal.  A47, potential rack number, on right side.  Wear, light bumps and scratches seem to be a little more prevalent on the high comb buttstock than would be expected when compared to the metal finish and condition.  But not excessively different, just a little if at all.  Rack number cuts through apparent original oil finish.  Forestock handling seems consistent with rear.

– The ordnance has the serif US, with the S seen as double struck, cutting through the blue.  Flaming bomb is again WWI style.  Stamps are vertically stacked in front of the ejection port, as configured on the m97 trench gun, and not horizontally applied under the port.

– There is no evidence of softening of sharp edges of the metal.  It was not buffed. There is edge wear and light scratches/scuffs, consistent with light to moderate handling since finish (or refinish?).

– There were a few, either pits, production inclusions or light dents which seemed to have strong bluing inside the divots.  Other dings cut through the bluing.  Initial impression was that the receiver could have been reblued (not buffed), and the barrel was original.

– Serial number is smack dab in the middle of the accepted range for known US martial marked M12 Riot Guns.

Pics were very large.  So, I’ll post what I can, and add as needed.  Thanks for any input, folks.  Is it real?  Or is it Memorex?

 

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May 22, 2017 - 2:45 pm
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– Forgot to add.  I could fin NO inspection initials on the gun, anywhere.

 

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May 22, 2017 - 3:44 pm
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I would not touch that shotgun with a 10′ pole. Looks fake to me.   Big Larry

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May 22, 2017 - 6:04 pm
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Many thanks.

I have no reference material on the particular subject, only the internet, so your experienced opinion is appreciated.

No intentions to challenge, at all.  But I would like to be able to pass information on to the owner.  Is it possible to break down a few details beyond the fake assessment, please?  i.e. font, placement/shape of stamps, gun finish, etc.

And to compare, would the following Gunbroker sale have been a valid US marked example?  Thanks.

 

Edit:  I can’t seem to add a link to gunbroker, so here is the auction number – 642349172

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May 23, 2017 - 12:06 am
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I agree with Big Larry.  It’s fake. 

The other one on Gunbroker may be bogus too.  There’s something about the martial markings on that one that don’t look correct to me.

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May 23, 2017 - 1:43 am
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I too believe that it is a Fake. The ordnance marking on the right hand side of the receiver is absolutely FAKE. Wrong font, and wrong bomb.

Bert

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May 23, 2017 - 3:03 am
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Three for three.  Seems unanimous.

Many thanks for taking the time to view the pics and respond.  I’ll pass on the news, and pass on the shotgun.

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May 23, 2017 - 10:52 am
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About a year ago, I had a friend that knows little about shotguns, but was given a WW1 Winchester Trenchgun. The things done to that gun were very laughable. Someone had taken the time to stamp the gun with WW2 stamps and the gun was way out of the known serial number range. My friend offered me the gun, but I passed knowing it was a 100% faked shotgun. He took it to a gun show and sold it, then offered me a near drippy mint WW2 Winchester Trenchgun for $2,500. Gun arrived and as he stated, it was actually a 98% gun with a few slight scratches. Probably unfired. Too much of this stuff is going on to an unsuspecting public. M70’s are another target for fakers. You really have to know your stuff when buying high end guns. This Forum is a great place to learn, but ask before you commit. There are some very experienced folks here willing to share.   Big LarryDSCF0480.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF0487.JPGImage Enlarger

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May 23, 2017 - 11:49 am
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Gorgeous specimen!

And thanks again for the help.

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May 25, 2017 - 6:19 pm
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I have a model 1912 riot gun SN 1647XX….no military markings….but 98% condition….looks like it stood in a factory guards cabinet for 80/90 years with a wipe down every now and then…..that one would of been a nice early riot gun if not all f—ed up with all the bogus markings…..what a shame….

gunut.....

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