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1897 Trench gun barrel
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March 25, 2023 - 4:09 am
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If I understand it correctly I cannot post photos, but three questions to start off with.

First is an 97 trench gun barrel dated 44, no ordnance stamp, but a second proof mark next to the regular Winchester proof.  Any thoughts of what I have?  I can send photos.

Second is a parkerized Winchester heat shield, 4 row, 19 hole, with W stamped on left side.  This thing does not easily fit my parkerized or blued M12 trench barrels, or the 97 trench barrel easily, a really tight fit that goes almost all the way on without too much force.  I don’t have any issues like this with my Stevens heat shield, that thing goes easily on any trench barrel I have tired it on.  Should this be that hard to put on.

Third is anybody know where I go with questions about a Remington M10 trench gun.  Have what appears to be an original, all the correct screw holes, whatever it is called to hold the front edge of the hand guard, hole on underside of barrel for attachment, rear sling swivel hole filled, stock checkered, and poly choke on a correct length barrel.  Had poly choke removed, barrel sleeved, serial numbers match and are in correct range.

Any help would be appreciated.  Will have more questions once I get the letter back on my early 1897 C75927.

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March 25, 2023 - 5:09 am
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Hello Raymond,

Production of the WW II Model 97 Trench Guns ended mid-year 1943.  With only a few exceptions, nearly all of the WW II Model 97 Trench Gun barrels are found with “41” or “42” dated barrels (though a very small number of the late production guns have been found with a “43” dated barrel.

Based on the “44” date barrel on your Model 97, and the ill fitting parkerized heat shield, I would assume that it is a “put together” parts gun.  You did not mention the serial number, and that will tell me the precise month & year the receiver frame as manufactured.

As a Guest on the WACA website you can post the URL to pictures you have uploaded to a photo hosting website.

Bert

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March 25, 2023 - 5:28 am
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The heat shield was not part of a gun, but purchased for a M12 trench gun that was missing one.  It just seems way too tight as it does not easily fit on any of my 3 Winchester trench barrels.  The 44 dated barrel was picked up in the hopes that eventually a 97 trench gun came my way and that if it needed a barrel replacement I had one without then having to go out and find one.  I guess my real question should have been how tight does a normal Winchester heat shield normally fit.  I will post photos of the 44 dated barrel tomorrow and add a link here.

Added Photo information

hope this works

 

Photo Muzzle – Top M12 Ordnance stamped trench barrel

                      Middle – 44 dated 97 trench barrel

                      Bottom – M12 Ordnance stamped riot barrel

Photo EndView – Left to right

                     M12 Trench

                    44 dated 97 trench

                    M12 riot

                   M12 somebody cut to 20 inches (Just for comparison)

Photo RollStamp1 – 97 44 dated trench roll stamp

Photo Roll Stamp – 97 44 dated roll stamp

Photo Date – 44 stamp on 87 trench barrel          

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March 25, 2023 - 5:56 pm
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I cannot access the pictures as you have them login & password protected.

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March 25, 2023 - 8:49 pm
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I guess that did not go well, I think I have them open to everyone now.

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March 25, 2023 - 9:30 pm
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Raymond Backstrom said
I guess that did not go well, I think I have them open to everyone now.

  

You have apparently removed the URL to the pictures ??

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March 25, 2023 - 9:43 pm
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I have no idea how that happened. or whats going on, if I edit the post I see the link, when I save it, the link disappears.  Got it fixed, I guess I need to be smarter than my computer.

 

44 dated 97 trench barrel?

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March 26, 2023 - 1:11 am
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Can you put up a clear picture of the double proof markings on the 44 dated barrel?

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March 26, 2023 - 2:26 am
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Done

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March 26, 2023 - 3:01 am
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The 44 dated 97 trench gun barrel with double proofs is a replacement barrel.  I’ve seen several of these, all dated 44 with the normal Winchester WP proof as well as a P in a sideways oval proof.   They all were trench gun barrels – – – no bead front sight with the three bayonet adaptor screw cuts on the underside of the barrel.  

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March 26, 2023 - 3:20 am
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Thanks a bunch, military or civilian replacements?

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March 26, 2023 - 5:27 pm
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I believe they are military replacement barrels.  I’ve also seen 1941 dated 97 trench gun barrels with the two proof marks.  Some of these 1941 and 1944 dated barrels were still wrapped in protective paper like you see for various military parts.   They were all in new condition with a blue finish.  I doubt in 1941 or even 1944 Winchester was making Model 97 trench gun replacement barrels for the civilian market.    These replacement barrels were likely part of a military contract requirement.

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March 26, 2023 - 8:58 pm
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Thanks a bunch. Laugh

One related question for the group.  For a 1899 dated 1897 shotgun, would the Winchester records show if it was purchased on a military contract?  Just curious because ordered a letter a couple days ago for this one.  It is a take down, full choke crossed out, cut to 20 inches with an ordnance stamp.  Not a big deal either way, because i did not pay that much for it, and and it was not sold as having the ordnance stamp, the stamp showed up under some surface rust with just a small piece of it actually showing before it was cleaned up.  As I stated in the original post, I will probably have questions on this one when the letter gets here.

 

thanks to all

I wish I would have found this group a long tie ago.

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March 26, 2023 - 9:05 pm
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1897’s made in 1899 would be a solid frame not a takedown.  Give us the entire serial number and we can tell you when it was made.  Military issued guns aren’t noted as such in the info Cody has. All you get is the configuration, the date into the warehouse and the shipping DATE.  It is vary rare to learn where a gun went.  Sometimes there is a return for repair that rarely notes from whom it came.  If the order number states a very large number of guns in that same shipment and they are all trench guns they were most likely sent to the military.

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March 26, 2023 - 9:20 pm
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C 75927, has the proper 3 screw handguard, both numbers match.

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March 26, 2023 - 9:47 pm
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75927 was manufactured in 1899 but no trench guns were ever made that early.  Most war time WWI trench guns were made starting at about the 600,000 serial number range. 1913 or later.  I believe that some non military guns were purchased from the general population and converted.

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March 26, 2023 - 10:18 pm
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It is  not a trench gun, but a riot configuration, at least now. I guess I should have been more clear about this part.

Which fits what I believe was happening around 1900, taking commercial shotguns, cutting to 20″, and crowning them to fulfill military contracts.

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March 27, 2023 - 6:36 am
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Raymond Backstrom said
It is not a trench gun, but a riot configuration, at least now. I guess I should have been more clear about this part.

Which fits what I believe was happening around 1900, taking commercial shotguns, cutting to 20″, and crowning them to fulfill military contracts.

  

S/N 74927 as manufactured in June 1899.  The Take Downs Model 1897s were introduced 1898.  There were no military contracts for the Model 1897 Riot Guns until WW I.  That stated, Winchester did manufacture large batches of Model 1897 Riot Guns for Police, Prison, and Express company contracts, and there was a large batch of Model 1897s converted from Field guns to Riot guns in the 93400 – 101000 serial number range, but they were all Solid frame guns.  Based on my research survey, all Model 1897 Riot Guns manufactured through July 1903 were Solid Frame guns.  The first Take Down Model 1897 Riot gun was manufactured in August 1903 in the 216000 serial number range.

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March 27, 2023 - 4:19 pm
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Thanks again.

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