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Good day all, hoping for a little help as I am trying to get me and this rifle on the same page with our shooting. It’s a Winchester 1894, with a Lyman #6 rear sight, and the German silver front blade. Yesterday while shooting I was putting the front sight center in the bottom of the V notch, and hitting about 8” high at 50 yards. When using the flat blade with triangle on the #6, I was hitting about 5-6” high. My incorrect assumption was that when I went out to 100 yards I would be close to hitting the bullseye, but no, I was now hitting double high hitting at least 16” high. I am not well versed in shooting with open sights, but does it seem like a taller front sight is in order? In full disclosure I removed a buckhorn style rear sight in favor of the Lyman #6 as it folds down out of the way of the Lyman tang peep sight. In a perfect world I’d like both the #6 and the rear peep to be usable, but I’m wondering if that’s possible and I need to go back to the buckhorn.
I don’t have my Winchester book handy now as I am at work, but what was a standard front and rear sight setup if a tang sight was also being used?
Any help is appreciated…I’ve been wanting to deer hunt with this rifle for a couple years now and need to get this problem figured out before November! Thanks!
Maybe a Lyman Ivory bead #26 front sight is needed? Or a Winchester #34 C three leaf express to pair with the current German silver blade?
Matt H. said In a perfect world I’d like both the #6 and the rear peep to be usable, but I’m wondering if that’s possible and I need to go back to the buckhorn.
Defeats the advantage of the tang sight. Just pick out a taller front sight, & for hunting, nothing beats a Redfield Sourdough. Although a #6 was often used to fill the dove-tail when a tang sight had been mounted, & serve theoretically as a supplemental sight, I can’t think of a realistic scenario that would call for using it–only some very rare accident would damage the tang sight calling for use of the #6.
Thanks for the reply Clarence, and that makes sense to be treating the #6 as more of a backup in the case of something happening to the peep/
What ammo are you shooting in it? If it the modern 150-gr loads, that is at least part of the reason you are shooting high. The Model 1894 factory loads were 170-grain, and Winchester regulated the sights for that load.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Wow Bert, I don’t know why that bullet weight didn’t even cross my mind!!
I was using Winchester brand 150gr ammo, and some Barnes 150gr hollow points in Starline brass that were my hand loads. I have a few dozen boxes of both 150 and 170gr, I’ll head back to the range Wednesday and see what happens with the 170s.
Will report back then : )
I am not certain that the bullet weight is a contributing factor. I used the Winchester Ballistic Calculator and get the following results comparing 150 vs 170 Power Point ammo in 30-30 caliber. The green color is for the 150 grain option.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
Identical trajectories out to 100 yds, & even at 200, the diff is inconsequential. A taller front sight is needed; how much taller, probably only test firing will determine.
The plan for Wednesday is to go back to the range and ensure the peep is accurate at 100 yards with the current front sight, which is the German silver blade. In a real world hunting situation I would like to use the tang sight as I believe it would provide the best accuracy, so that is my priority right now.
I also need to decide on the 170gr or 150 gr bullet option. I’d like to shoot my own reloads in the 150gr Barnes TSX FN FB
Based on how high I was hitting at 100 yards, I think these are my options in regards to the rest…
1. Go back to the flat top sporting rear sight with the current front sight. This is not ideal as it interferes with the peep sight.
2. Swap the front sight for a Lyman #26 to better mate with the folding Lyman #6 rear sight
3. Completely omit the rear sight in favor of a blank
I certainly appreciate the help fellas!
November 7, 2015
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I generally go with option 3 but in your situation option 2 has merit. I keep modern replacement front sights of various heights and diameters in my parts box along with the original sights identified w/ SN in a clearly marked bag. If you can find a front sight that works with the rear and tang sights on the rifle now you’ll have a setup that gives you more versatility in the field.
Mike
Matt H. said
3. Completely omit the rear sight in favor of a blank
#3–because your preoccupation with the essentially useless #6 is leading you on an unprofitable wild-goose chase. Or, just accept that it’s chief value is decorative, & forget about trying to shoot with it, which is what I’d do; this also spares you the trouble of finding a blank.
TXGunNut said
I generally go with option 3 but in your situation option 2 has merit. I keep modern replacement front sights of various heights and diameters in my parts box along with the original sights identified w/ SN in a clearly marked bag. If you can find a front sight that works with the rear and tang sights on the rifle now you’ll have a setup that gives you more versatility in the field.
Mike
Yes option three is where I think I’m headed. I had hoped to have some redundancy in case there ever was a problem with the tang sight, but maybe I’m overthinking a problem that likely won’t arise. An
Matt H. said I had hoped to have some redundancy in case there ever was a problem with the tang sight, but maybe I’m overthinking a problem that likely won’t arise.
I’ve been hunting with tang sights for over 50 yrs, & never had such a problem.
November 7, 2015
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Matt H. said
TXGunNut said
I generally go with option 3 but in your situation option 2 has merit. I keep modern replacement front sights of various heights and diameters in my parts box along with the original sights identified w/ SN in a clearly marked bag. If you can find a front sight that works with the rear and tang sights on the rifle now you’ll have a setup that gives you more versatility in the field.
Mike
Yes option three is where I think I’m headed. I had hoped to have some redundancy in case there ever was a problem with the tang sight, but maybe I’m overthinking a problem that likely won’t arise. An
Yes, overthinking is a hazard. It gave us the see-thru scope mounts, right? I have a couple of shooter/collectible Winchesters that could possibly be pressed into service as hunting rifles. Some have put meat in the freezer! My strategy is to use the barrel sight for quick instinct shooting on hogs or deer at very close quarters. Quite honestly with my degree of presbyopia the receiver or tang sight is probably quicker but I fold down the tang sight when moving about in the tangly spots. In snap shooting the rear sight is not always noticed, putting the front sight on a vital spot of hair does not require a precise sight picture when you can smell your prey.
You need to have complete confidence in any and all sight systems on a hunting rifle. This means knowing where the bullet will hit regardless of the system used. We owe that to our prey, we owe it to ourselves. If we have no confidence in our ability to cleanly harvest game we should pass on the shot, sit back and enjoy the scenery.
Mike
Mike, I couldn’t agree more with the last bit of your reply.
I have been in to long range shooting with bolt guns for sometime now. Have been to two great classes taught by two former Marine Scout Snipers and have been shooting on our 1000 yard local range dozens of times. At this point I regard myself as an above average shooter, but always continuing to learn and hone my skills.
The long range bug bit came about after a poor shot on my part at a deer about 14 years ago. I was so disgusted with myself that I set out to ensure it would never happen again. No excuses, but at the time I was rusty, in a hurry, and frankly just not very good. This is why now, I am determined to be completely dialed in with my 1894. I want to know exactly where I am shooting and excel at my shot placement before attempting to harvest any animal. Accuracy first!
All the help and advice is much appreciated.
TXGunNut said
In snap shooting the rear sight is not always noticed, putting the front sight on a vital spot of hair does not require a precise sight picture when you can smell your prey.
The front sight alone on that vital spot is exactly what you see through a peep sight, unless the ap is too small. That’s the message Wm Lyman was trying to convey in his famous trade-mark of the “bounding buck.” Those (so-called) Mod 1854 S&Ws on the cover of the current Rifleman couldn’t be made much uglier, but one thing, at least, the designers got completely right: a big ap rcvr sight & NO brl sight.
November 7, 2015
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Matt-
Other than the Whittington Center’s white buffalo at 1123 yards I have little interest in long range shooting. And yes, I can ring that big hunk of steel with tang sights on an 1874 C. Sharps 45-90 using BP and my own cast bullets. I realize serious shooting at this distance and beyond is an entirely different matter but at my age the investment in glass and technology is not going to happen. I admire the dedication of long range target shooting but I also know how far a game animal can move while the bullet is in flight. Putting a bullet where the animal was when I pulled the trigger is of little consequence if the animal moves. Long range shooting is a good experience for a hunter but too many think they can cleanly harvest a game animal at that distance. Our Scout Snipers can take an enemy out of action at unbelievable distances but as hunters we want a humane, instant kill. I know just enough about long range shooting to be disgusted with the sniper craze I have been seeing in recent years. This fascination would be crushed by the first 2-3 days of a real sniper school but feeding these fantasies supports some good folks so I’ll toddle off to bed.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Other than the Whittington Center’s white buffalo at 1123 yards I have little interest in long range shooting. And yes, I can ring that big hunk of steel with tang sights on an 1874 C. Sharps 45-90 using BP and my own cast bullets. I realize serious shooting at this distance and beyond is an entirely different matter but at my age the investment in glass and technology is not going to happen. I admire the dedication of long range target shooting but I also know how far a game animal can move while the bullet is in flight. Putting a bullet where the animal was when I pulled the trigger is of little consequence if the animal moves. Long range shooting is a good experience for a hunter but too many think they can cleanly harvest a game animal at that distance. Our Scout Snipers can take an enemy out of action at unbelievable distances but as hunters we want a humane, instant kill. I know just enough about long range shooting to be disgusted with the sniper craze I have been seeing in recent years. This fascination would be crushed by the first 2-3 days of a real sniper school but feeding these fantasies supports some good folks so I’ll toddle off to bed.
A YT video posted on another board several yrs ago showed a kid of about 15-16 sniping at an elk on the far side of a canyon something like 800 yds away, if not more. He was shooting from a portable bench-rest with his father & two other men calling the bullet strikes (which as often happens didn’t much alarm the elk) through spotting scopes. Kid must have been a pretty good shot, because after the 3rd or 4th miss, he brought the elk down, to much celebration. I don’t deny I’d have loved to have been that kid, & of course it’s good his father was taking his son hunting, but arranging this stunt wasn’t the way to teach hunting ethics. Hope the family took to heart the comments made by viewers, which were almost unanimously negative.
As for the sniper craze, that began at least 20 yrs ago, which I noticed when Win A5 & Lyman 5A scopes began selling on ebay for 2 or 3 times their previous prices, because sniper wantabes were converting ’03 Springfields into fake WW I sniper-rifles.
To be clear, my interest in long range shooting stems from a desire to be a better marksman at ethical hunting distances. There are thousands of hunters walking afield every year who can’t shoot a lick regardless of the distance. Are they ethical?
There are also a large number of people still sighting in rifles 1.5’ – 2” high at 100 yards, “that’ll do the trick, just hold over his back if he’s out past 200!” It’s honestly unethical in this day and age to still operate this way, but laziness coupled with an unwillingness to learn something new, and lack of respect to the animal still has people doing it.
Second, I have no desire to be a “sniper” with my lever gun. I am going to hold myself to a distance I know I can hit accurately 100% of the time. Which brings us back full circle to the start of my thread here, and my desire to get my sight situation worked out, get some more time behind the rifle, and be ready for the fall.
Take care gents!
Matt, I respect your position on the matter. I will shoot metal silhouettes at ranges and under conditions I won’t shoot an animal. Steel feels no pain. And a hit anywhere usually works. As to your original issue, I have used copper or brass wire glued to top of front sights to lower points of impact. Can readily be reversed depending on what you use. Once determined, you can either leave it if the adhesion is trustworthy (it gives a “bead” sight effect, too) or measure and then know what height you need. I have passed this hint on to others struggling with the same issue. Guess just how much additional height you need and buy a gauge of wire that seems to maybe do the trick. BTW, I wish we had a long range here, but too many people with too many homes to get a 1000 yard or 1000 meter range in civilization! We are doing well to have what we have–maxing out at 300 yards. Tim
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