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I had never shot smokeless in my 50-95 so I loaded 2 cartridges and shot them at the range today. I used 22 and 23 grains of 4198. I put toilet paper over the charge. I was expecting a little over 1000 FPS. The 22 grain load shot 888 FPS and the 23 grain load shot 838 FPS ??? I plan to shoot more now that I have an idea of the FPS. I might even use some 3031 next time too.
Anyone used these powders before in a 50?
November 7, 2015
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That sounds like fun, must admit I would probably want to try it with BP. Last time I lit that much charcoal I grilled a couple of steaks!
What kind of velocity are you hoping for?
Mike
Chuck,
The starting load for 4198 powder in the 50-95 cartridge should be 36 – 38 grains, and no filler material.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Chuck, I always used 4198 at 33 grains with toilet paper and a RCBS 290 cast bullet sized to .509. I used Bertram brass with a mag primer. It gave me 1430fps with 28 fps variance strings. I used a thin paper wad over the powder and neatly folded and rolled the TP to fit the empty space in the cartridge. It was accurate with a good kick. I’d be afraid to use more than 33 grains of 4198. If the bullet is to big and brass to thick you will have trouble chambering the round. The TP in the 22″ barreled guns give the chronograph trouble, you may have to move it farther away.
I Never used 3031 in a 50-95 or gas checks. I tried 3031 in my 50-110’s but the 4198 worked better.
This is what I did, not a recommendation. T/R
TR said
Chuck, I always used 4198 at 33 grains with toilet paper and a RCBS 290 cast bullet sized to .509. I used Bertram brass with a mag primer. It gave me 1430fps with 28 fps variance strings. I used a thin paper wad over the powder and neatly folded and rolled the TP to fit the empty space in the cartridge. It was accurate with a good kick. I’d be afraid to use more than 33 grains of 4198. If the bullet is to big and brass to thick you will have trouble chambering the round. The TP in the 22″ barreled guns give the chronograph trouble, you may have to move it farther away.I Never used 3031 in a 50-95 or gas checks. I tried 3031 in my 50-110’s but the 4198 worked better.
This is what I did, not a recommendation. T/R
Tom, I was using Barnes’ data but I started 1 grain low. My bullets are .510″ but I did not slug the barrel. I really am not going to shoot this gun enough to worry about accuracy. Same with the 45-75. It’s hard to find smokeless data for the 1876.
I will gradually work my way up. I will stop when I get to somewhere near 1,400 FPS. I always use toilet paper with reduced loads. I have some .45″ wads but no .5″. Maybe I’ll try these. When I chambered, fired and extracted the first rounds everything went well. I did put a little crimp on these thinking I might load a few in the magazine. I was shocked that there was no recoil but when I saw the numbers that explained it.
The starting load for 4198 powder in the 50-95 cartridge should be 36 – 38 grains, and no filler material.
Bert
Bert where did you get this data?
Chuck,
Dupont published a guideline for the use of IMR 4198 as a BP substitute at least 40-years ago, and they stated that a safe starting load is 40% of the 2F black powder charge (load). The 40% rule has proven to provide near identical velocities and pressure.
95 x .4 (40%) is 38 grains. Because 4198 is not position sensitive, and 38-grains adequately occupies a fair amount of space in the case, fillers are not needed. I have used the 40% guideline for several different cartridges I shoot in my Model 1885 rifles (40-70 Ballard, 40-70 Sharps Straight, 45-70, etc.).
All of that said, you can always contact Hodgdon and ask them.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Chuck, At 33grains of 4198 the gun kicks like a 12 ga hunting load. I use corn meal as a filler in smaller calibers, but it didn’t work well in the 50 caliber cases. It made the load scary. Without TP velocity varied in excess of 150fps. I’m sure the TP filler increases the speed and maybe the mag primer also. I have no interest in going beyond 33 grains of 4198 in my load.
The thin paper wad I cut from magazine paper with a .5 inch punch. I use them in all my loads to keep the powder up against the primer and prevent it from mixing with the filler. Yes I know that some powders do not need it ,but I’m old and old school. T/R
Thanks Bert and Tom. I can’t shoot this Tuesday but will load a couple more for the following Tuesday and let you know how it worked.
Following this with interest . I have been shooting an original 1876 Winchester rifle that I have re-barreled to 50-95 WCF . The barrel was made by Winchesterbarrels in Florida 24″ HRHO , they did a very good job . The bore is .500 and groove .510 , Cut Rifling and I changed the ROT from 1 in 60 ” to 1 in 36 “. The rifle is very accurate . Have taken several Deer and Wild hog with it , some just a few day’s ago using the Winchester 50 EX bullet cast in a Winchester mould Jamison brass and Swiss ff2 . They just fold up when hit in the shoulder . The Bp. load of 86 grn. by weight is not being burnt in entirety before leaving the 24 ” barrel but works very well . I am tempted to try a few loads using the 32 -33 Grn. 4198 load . Thanks all for sharing .,,,DT
Ron, I shot a couple 22″ 76’s in 50-95 and even with 4198, the powder was not done burning when the bullet came out. In the dark with the TP as filler it was a sight to see. T/R
TR said
Ron, I shot a couple 22″ 76’s in 50-95 and even with 4198, the powder was not done burning when the bullet came out. In the dark with the TP as filler it was a sight to see. T/R
I don’t have that issue when shooting it in my 30-inch barreled high-wall.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I don’t ever see powder still burning but I often see a piece of toilet paper. I don’t shoot anything with less than a 26″ barrel.
Chuck said
I had never shot smokeless in my 50-95 so I loaded 2 cartridges and shot them at the range today. I used 22 and 23 grains of 4198. I put toilet paper over the charge. I was expecting a little over 1000 FPS. The 22 grain load shot 888 FPS and the 23 grain load shot 838 FPS ??? I plan to shoot more now that I have an idea of the FPS. I might even use some 3031 next time too.Anyone used these powders before in a 50?
Chuck what bullet are you loading ? Barnes list a 285 lead IMR 4198 26 Grn. @ 1420 MV . And 350 lead IMR 4198 23 Grn. @ 1350 MV. No mention of barrel length . You mention you are shooting 26 ” barrel . The MV /Fps . seem low with the load you mentioned that you tested . ,,,DT
dusty texian said
Chuck what bullet are you loading ? Barnes list a 285 lead IMR 4198 26 Grn. @ 1420 MV . And 350 lead IMR 4198 23 Grn. @ 1350 MV. No mention of barrel length . You mention you are shooting 26 ” barrel . The MV /Fps . seem low with the load you mentioned that you tested . ,,,DT
I am using a 50 Caliber Lyman 512137, 300 grain FN. Bullets were supplied by the Bullshop and I ordered them soft (black powder cartridge with smokeless powder) with the proper lube.
I re checked the Barnes data. Someone had to transpose the numbers a long time ago because more than 1 source says 23 grains of IMR 4198. I shot the gun again yesterday. I used 30 grains and 33 grains of IMR 4198. 30 grains shot 1253 FPS. 33 grains shot 1399 FPS. Did not notice the recoil but it was more of what I expected. It was soooo windy that I did not have the chronograph set up for very long and I did not shoot at a target. The supplied target stands were either blowing over or breaking as fast as you could put them up.
Without the chronograph and all of the wind it was a mostly wasted day. I do gain some knowledge on the weather’s influence on my shots. I loaded 50 rounds, 5 different powder loads and 2 different bullets. 25 of the 50 I had some data on from before. I was hoping to get data on the other 25 rounds with a new bullet for comparison. The new bullet shot about 1-1/2″ lower at all 5 powder charges? Might be slightly more accurate?? I am about to go back to a heavier/longer bullet. My stock production gun does not like the shorter 130 grain bullets. The best 5 shot group I shot with the Hornady bullet was .689″ and the best for the Berger was .494″. If I discount flyers the Hornady averaged .739″ and the Berger .571″. Flyers are most likely my fault.
Chuck said
I am using a 50 Caliber Lyman 512137, 300 grain FN. Bullets were supplied by the Bullshop and I ordered them soft (black powder cartridge with smokeless powder) with the proper lube.
I re checked the Barnes data. Someone had to transpose the numbers a long time ago because more than 1 source says 23 grains of IMR 4198. I shot the gun again yesterday. I used 30 grains and 33 grains of IMR 4198. 30 grains shot 1253 FPS. 33 grains shot 1399 FPS. Did not notice the recoil but it was more of what I expected. It was soooo windy that I did not have the chronograph set up for very long and I did not shoot at a target. The supplied target stands were either blowing over or breaking as fast as you could put them up.
Without the chronograph and all of the wind it was a mostly wasted day. I do gain some knowledge on the weather’s influence on my shots. I loaded 50 rounds, 5 different powder loads and 2 different bullets. 25 of the 50 I had some data on from before. I was hoping to get data on the other 25 rounds with a new bullet for comparison. The new bullet shot about 1-1/2″ lower at all 5 powder charges? Might be slightly more accurate?? I am about to go back to a heavier/longer bullet. My stock production gun does not like the shorter 130 grain bullets. The best 5 shot group I shot with the Hornady bullet was .689″ and the best for the Berger was .494″. If I discount flyers the Hornady averaged .739″ and the Berger .571″. Flyers are most likely my fault.
Chuck shooting in that kind of wind condition is tough at best . Thanks for passing along the info . I have never used smokeless powder in the 50-95 WCF , but am considering trying some IMR 4198 . If I do I’ll post my results . In the past few yrs. I have shot the 50 Cal. with Swiss ff2 , it’s a Blast for sure . ,,DT
Gents, I have a Browning 1885 High Wall in 50-110. Ammo is available on the internet, but we have a local gun show and I always see 50-95 ammo available there at a better price. I am a newbie and have little experience in reloading and no experience in 50 calibers. Will 50-95 shoot fine in my 50-110? The rifle is built like a tank so I have no doubt it can handle the load, but will the difference in length be an issue?
Thank you in advance.
The 50-95 WCF cartridge is not interchangeable with the 50-110 Express cartridge, as they are dimensionally very different.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
The 50-95 WCF cartridge is not interchangeable with the 50-110 Express cartridge, as they are dimensionally very different.
The 50-95 is a shorter fatter cartridge than the straight long 50-110. The 50-95 was made for the short action of a 1876 and will not fit in a 1886 that uses the 50-110, a longer cartridge with a smaller diameter. The confusion started with the term Express. When Winchester came out with the 50-95 for the 1876 they called it the 50 Express. Later when they made the 1886 in 50-110 they called it Winchester Express 50-110-300. Marking on barrels and loading tools got shorten and the term “Express” no longer meant only a 1876, they added the bullet diameter and powder charge.
As Burt said “they are dimensionally very different”. T/R
TR said
As Burt said “they are dimensionally very different”. T/R
I prepared some visual aids for this discussion!!!
Left – 50-95 Express Cartridge, Right – 50-110 Express Cartridge.
Both cartridges next to a Winchester Factory 50-95 Express Chamber Gauge.
Winchester Factory 50-95 Express Chamber Gauge with 50-110 Express Cartridge inserted as far as it will freely go.
Ike said
Bert can you shoot 50-110 ammo in a 50 Express? Thanks for your time
I think the above photo demonstrates the problems you’d run into trying to make these cartridges interchangeable.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
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