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Pondering low-power .45-70 loading
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June 26, 2022 - 11:29 pm
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I shoot light loads in most my rifles.  Mainly with lead bullets.  I have a good supply of Data Powder 2200 I need to work harder at using it up.  I’m just about to load up some .32-20’s but that won’t help me much with using up this powder.  In looking at the Data 2200 published loads for a 405 grain lead bullet where a maximum load of 40.8 grains of powder, produces 1846 fps @25,700 PSI. 

I use Trail Boss in many cartridges.  For the .45-70, the published Trail Boss maximum load for the 405 grain lead bullet is 13.0 grains producing 1007 fps and 25,600 CUP. 

I’m not concerned about using these in my ’86 Winchester, but I am more cautious about what I use in my Bullard .45-70.  The pressure of the two loads I mention are similar but the Data powder sure belts out some high performance.

Thoughts? 

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June 27, 2022 - 3:15 am
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steve004 said
I’m not concerned about using these in my ’86 Winchester, but I am more cautious about what I use in my Bullard .45-70.

 

Steve,  Why do you think Bullards aren’t able to handle same loads as ’86s; esp. light loads?  Ken Waters (Pet Loads) rates them as equivalent in action strength.  I could quote his recommended loads, but won’t, because if you’re shooting “old guns” without this keystone loading manual, you need to buy it.

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June 27, 2022 - 5:20 pm
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I have Ken’s book.  I would recommend when using his data to start lower and work up.  Doing this type of reloading is why I bought a chronograph.  I wouldn’t shoot my 45-70’s that fast. 

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June 27, 2022 - 8:01 pm
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Chuck said
I have Ken’s book.  I would recommend when using his data to start lower and work up.  Doing this type of reloading is why I bought a chronograph.  I wouldn’t shoot my 45-70’s that fast. 

  

But he also provides loads intended for the weakest actions–Trapdoors & Ballards. 

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June 27, 2022 - 10:23 pm
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clarence said

Chuck said

I have Ken’s book.  I would recommend when using his data to start lower and work up.  Doing this type of reloading is why I bought a chronograph.  I wouldn’t shoot my 45-70’s that fast. 

  

But he also provides loads intended for the weakest actions–Trapdoors & Ballards. 

  

I’m doubting Ken’s loading information includes Action Arms Data 2200 powder.  I have a lot of books here and realize there is always usefulness in adding more.  I’ve just done that so many times that now I’m starting to think what am I going to do with all of these books?  If a person is in this hobby area for 50 plus years, a great deal can be accumulated.  I bought my first Flayderman Guide when I was a teenager.  Same with my first Cartridges of the World.  Still have them – and so many others – along with all the free gun catalogs I picked up at sporting good stores, starting as a very young boy.  All here.  And of course boxes and boxes of American Rifleman, Gun Report… I’m sure many here know exactly what I’m talking about.  I recall noting there had been a market for old (i.e. not real old) catalogs and gun magazines on Ebay – that seems well behind us now.  I see that kind of stuff posted now – for cheap – and it doesn’t sell.  

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June 27, 2022 - 11:23 pm
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steve004 saidI’ve just done that so many times that now I’m starting to think what am I going to do with all of these books?

Steve,  When you figure that out, please let me know at once!  Think I’ve got on the order of 700 gun, hunting, fishing, & natural history books, plus another 100 or so dog books.  Plus about 20 Rifleman bound vols.  Plus gun, sight, accessory catalogs too numerous to count, all but a very few pre-war.  No thought of even trying to sell them, because the sporting book dealers I began buying them from 60 yrs ago are now food for the worms, or put out of business by the internet.  I also still have my first eds. of Flayderman’s & Cartridges, the latter turned yellow as old newsprint.  Also, the first Shooter’s Bible I bought while in HS, the ’59 ed., which I still consult fairly often on questions about newer stuff, like Model 52s.

But back to Pet Loads, it’s not an ordinary loading manual, it’s the distillation of a lifetime of experience shooting “old guns” by the very last of that generation of old time masters that included Whelen, Crossman, Landis, etc.

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June 28, 2022 - 1:07 am
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clarence said

steve004 saidI’ve just done that so many times that now I’m starting to think what am I going to do with all of these books?

Steve,  When you figure that out, please let me know at once!  Think I’ve got on the order of 700 gun, hunting, fishing, & natural history books, plus another 100 or so dog books.  Plus about 20 Rifleman bound vols.  Plus gun, sight, accessory catalogs too numerous to count, all but a very few pre-war.  No thought of even trying to sell them, because the sporting book dealers I began buying them from 60 yrs ago are now food for the worms, or put out of business by the internet.  I also still have my first eds. of Flayderman’s & Cartridges, the latter turned yellow as old newsprint.  Also, the first Shooter’s Bible I bought while in HS, the ’59 ed., which I still consult fairly often on questions about newer stuff, like Model 52s.

But back to Pet Loads, it’s not an ordinary loading manual, it’s the distillation of a lifetime of experience shooting “old guns” by the very last of that generation of old time masters that included Whelen, Crossman, Landis, etc.

  

Clarence, I think the internet has screwed a lot of things up.  In talking to guys who have picked up old gun catalogs over the years, they would remark that before the internet, when you find one on a gun show table or in a shop, you would grab it because you had no idea when the opportunity would present itself again.  Now, you just plug the year and brand in a search engine multiple choices pop up.  It takes away the enjoyable aspect of happening upon something.  Once you know you can get one anytime you want, the desire can fall away quickly.  It reminds me of times in the last couple years where happening upon a box of .22 rimfire in a store was suddenly special – because you didn’t know when that would happen again.  

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June 28, 2022 - 2:07 am
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clarence said

steve004 saidI’ve just done that so many times that now I’m starting to think what am I going to do with all of these books?

Steve,  When you figure that out, please let me know at once!  Think I’ve got on the order of 700 gun, hunting, fishing, & natural history books, plus another 100 or so dog books.  Plus about 20 Rifleman bound vols.  Plus gun, sight, accessory catalogs too numerous to count, all but a very few pre-war.  No thought of even trying to sell them, because the sporting book dealers I began buying them from 60 yrs ago are now food for the worms, or put out of business by the internet.  I also still have my first eds. of Flayderman’s & Cartridges, the latter turned yellow as old newsprint.  Also, the first Shooter’s Bible I bought while in HS, the ’59 ed., which I still consult fairly often on questions about newer stuff, like Model 52s.

But back to Pet Loads, it’s not an ordinary loading manual, it’s the distillation of a lifetime of experience shooting “old guns” by the very last of that generation of old time masters that included Whelen, Crossman, Landis, etc.

  

Clarence – I don’t have it figured out either.  The best I’ve been able to come up with is to cut the in-flow as much as I can.  It’s based on the old Will Rogers wisdom, “if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.”

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June 28, 2022 - 12:36 pm
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Guys, The other thing that has happened to books because of the internet is that younger folks don’t invest in books at all.  If the internet doesn’t have the answer, it wasn’t worth asking.  This winter I helped out a widow whose husband collected US Martial arms from the Revolution to present.  He had a pretty exhaustive library, and the auction sites were not interested in trying to sell the books under any circumstance.  To quote one “they aren’t worth the effort”!  I boxed them up, took them to our gun club swap meet in February.  No one was interested until I advised they were “free to a good home”.  I kept a couple that are not in my area of interest but because they had John’s name in them, etc.  Makes me wonder what will also happen with my painfully accumulated references on Winchester lever actions, etc.  Books are also being sold to get them out of the way at our local library.  “On line” is the magic answer!  Bah!  Humbug!  Tim

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June 28, 2022 - 1:27 pm
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tim tomlinson said

Guys, The other thing that has happened to books because of the internet is that younger folks don’t invest in books at all.  If the internet doesn’t have the answer, it wasn’t worth asking. 

  

Even when the “answer” is incomplete, misleading, maybe totally false, as internet info often is.  Shallow, facile, superficial, but quick, is plenty good enough for most of those who rely solely on the internet.

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June 29, 2022 - 2:17 am
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As much as I love books I know they will be curios and relics within a generation or two. They will never be obsolete but most of the people who understand their value will be gone. 

Back on topic I’m not familiar with that powder, haven’t had to buy powder in years and obviously not keeping up with the times. If it’s somewhat bulky and cleaner than 5744 I’d be very interested in your findings.

 

Mike

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June 29, 2022 - 3:06 pm
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Designation: DP-2200
Type: Double base Spherical powder.
Category: Extremely fast burning Rifle
Time supplied: 1995-1999
Information:
The original DP-2200 was a once off military surplus powder supplied for a limited time in the late
90’s. It’s an extremely fast burning powder. Only a few calibers were tested at the time which was
published on a small flyer/pamphlet.
Important note:
This product was re-introduced in 2010.
The older data still apply and new re-tested data will added in the future.
Please see our latest loadguide edition 3.5 on the load data page for newly tested data for calibers such as
the 223Remington, 6mmx45 and the 6.8SPC.

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June 29, 2022 - 3:13 pm
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https://accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DP2200.pdf

Scroll down and load data including cartridges .25-20, .32-20, .30-30, .35 Remington, .45-70, .458 Win. magnum will be found.

My situation: I’m not considering purchasing this powder to use, I already have it.  And I have used it in many different cartridges.  It’s the .45-70 that I am pondering.  

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June 29, 2022 - 4:11 pm
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Your old gun should not be pushed to the max pressure no matter what the data says.  This data is probably OK for a modern gun in 45-70.  I’ve seen more than one 86 with problems from shooting high pressure loads.  I once pushed an 86 in 45-90 to around 2100 FPS.  I really don’t recommend this to anyone.

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June 29, 2022 - 6:18 pm
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I should have clarified that I would be using the suggested starting load (of Data 2200) not the maximum load.  I only quoted maximum loads for comparison purposes (the AA loading manual only displays CUP pressure for their maximum loads).  

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June 30, 2022 - 7:31 pm
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Thanks for the clarification Steve.  I’m sure you know what you are doing but I sometimes worry about info getting out to the know it all’s and the beginners.

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July 23, 2022 - 3:02 pm
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Steve–I have 3 45-70 in the Model 86. I use 5744 from Accurate and use 30 grains, no need for a filler. I only shoot 300 grain lead, always use light load, in the non nickle steel barrels.. Bill

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