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Hi!! Thanks for this forum that I just discovered. I went to the Civil War collectors show in Franklin, TN 2 weeks ago, saw several old Winchesters (a few 1892s, some nice pre-64 1894s & m70s and a 1917) that awakened my interest & I found this place.
I am especially interested in takedown models, for the novelty/cool factor if nothing else. I have always read that takedowns were "inaccurate" but when I tried searching old posts here I saw some discussion that this was not true if the barrel sights were used. Can anyone say what is actual truth on this matter based on their own shooting experience?? Thanks in advance, Bill
Bill,
In my personal experience, if the take down joint is snug (tight) when assembled, it has no negative effect on the accuracy. If the take down joint is loose, it will negatively affect the accuracy as the barrel assembly can/will move uncontrollably during the bullet travel inside the barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I agree with Bert. I’ve only had two original TD Winchesters, one was an original extra light 45-70 and the other a 30 WCF. The 45-70 was a tack driver, although I cannot recall the group sizes. I have not really developed a good load yet for my 30 WCF TD, but with 28.5 grains of IMR 3031 under a 160 grain RCBS GC bullet, I got a 10 shot group of 2 & 7/8" at 100 yards. Both TD’s were snug. I’m sure my 30 WCF shoots better than I am capable of with my sights.
Marvin S said
Mostly myth. Take downs also have two small screws to take up wear.
There are three screws on all of the lever action rifles.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Yes Bert is correct. Meant 3 ea, here are those screws on a Mod 55 TD 25-35. If I can get pics to upload.[image]
So I should NOT be afraid to buy a TD that is "loose"???
Marvin S said
Yes Bert is correct. Meant 3 ea, here are those screws on a Mod 55 TD 25-35. If I can get pics to upload.[image]
Since the photo has not shown up yet, here is a copy for those not familiar with it.
http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/oldguy67/media/1894%20others/255480/ADJscrews_zps59b3ea43.jpg.html
[Image Can Not Be Found]
curio bill”]So I should NOT be afraid to buy a TD that is "loose"???
Marvin S said
Yes Bert is correct. Meant 3 ea, here are those screws on a Mod 55 TD 25-35. If I can get pics to upload.[image]
No, that is not the case… you should be very concerned about a TD rifle that is loose. Many of them have been adjusted but are still loose. You need to examine it to determine if it can be adjusted.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
My three sons and I shoot takedown rifles and find they are just as accurate as our non TDs. We have tang sights on all of them, and we sometimes utilize the takedown properties for transporting them.
Often we shoot up to 120 yards at a dirt pit. When shooting their Winchesters, a wayward golf ball is in trouble until they launch it out of sight.
The EXCEPTION to the comment in the above Book insert pic, that states that "Only magazine tubes for takedown models are threaded" is the later production 86’s , with an’ A ‘ designation, following the serial #. I noticed this fact in the Madl Booklet "Identifying your model 1886 Winchester" on pg 56 , Madl quote "The "A" after the serial number means a thread in mag. tube " I checked my solid frame 86 with an A, and sure enough there is no standard pin hole ( for retaining mag ) thru the Mag Tube Ring /Hanger for my full length mag tube
I wonder why Winchester threaded the mag tube only for for a few solid frame model 1886’s and apparently no other models ? Anyone know ?
EDIT I should add that of course the exert from the above book is correct in context as it is from an (excellent ) book on the 94 Model
I could see if you were using a tang sight on a receiver that had some play in it might throw the accuracy off a bit but if using front and rear sight, it should not throw it off at all. Sure, you could loose some accuracy if using a tang sight and the the takedown was extremely loose, but still, if using the front and rear, I wouldnt think it would affect accuracy to a noticeable degree. As for takedown vs standard rifle accuracy, it all depends on the competing bore conditions and the quality of the shooter, all other factors being the same.
Like Bert said, if they are extremely loose or look like they have been shimmed I would walk away. Most competent gunsmiths should be able to fix a little wiggle though. I dont expecially like using the three screws as that can create more problems than when you started if you dont watch what your doing.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
January 26, 2011
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Here is an excellent example of an antique takedown 1894 I tightened up using the screw provisions. It was very loose to start with, but I did get it to tighten up after some very nervous and stressful cranking of the screws. Wow, do they turn hard, I had to use a square shanked driver with a wrench on the shaft along with all my weight for down pressure. It seems like an extremely crude way of adjusting them, as you are truly bending steel. My opinion is, yes, it works, but if its as bad as the example I show here, you will end up with a gap between the receiver and takedown ring. Also, due to the position of the three screws, the gap ended up wider at the bottom than the top. If this rifle was not a 25-35, TD, with double set trigger, and antique to boot, it probably would not be worthy of staying in my collection due to this poor takedown fit. As for the original question on accuracy, I have never shot this particular rifle, but Chris’ comments regarding tang sight vs. barrel sight makes sense to me.
Here are the pics showing the dimples in the steel from the adjustment screws, along with the resulting gap after assembly………
~Gary~
Wow! Those dimples are absolutely huge! I can see why those screws required so much torque. I have only had two TD’s (an original 1886 and an original 1894). Both were snug without any dimples whatsoever, so they had retained their factory snugness. I can see that most screw adjustments would be much smaller than the ones required by your TD. Of more concern to me is how to avoid wearing out the TD face so that no adjustments are ever necessary. I would think that some sort of very light lube on the two faces (or Conservator’s wax) would greatly reduce any wear.
Has that barrel been changed out or turned. The threads and the extractor notch look slightly offset. If the barrel was turned or replaced it might explain why it needed that amount of adjustment.
Gene
😕
January 26, 2011
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gene61 said
Has that barrel been changed out or turned. The threads and the extractor notch look slightly offset. If the barrel was turned or replaced it might explain why it needed that amount of adjustment.
Gene
😕
Gene,
I believe the barrel to be original to the rifle as it letters perfectly, barrel markings are period correct, and there are no signs that it has been toyed with.
I was just enlightened by another member in a side email on the possible cause of the problem (on many TD rifles).
I had always wondered, and frankly doubted, how you could truly take one apart so many times that it would have that much metal loss. I guess its possible but seemed so hard to believe.
He hinted that it was more likely caused by over tightening the magazine tube…………….hmmm, so I had to go take a look and see how this was possible. Sure enough, it became glaringly obvious how this could happen. The takedown ring is threaded for the magazine tube, but the receiver itself is not. This being said, if one was to get aggressive cranking down the tube, it will bottom out in the receiver, and if you continued to crank (possibly thinking you are pulling it tighter), the threads in the takedown ring will force it away from the receiver, creating a gap over time, more so on the bottom portion. This may only be an extra quarter turn, considering how coarse the threads are. Again, this was not an epiphany of mine, but rather the sharing of experience from a much more knowledgeable collector than I. Maybe some of you were well aware of this scenario, or disagree, but it had not been mentioned in this thread and it makes perfect sense to me.
Its good to have friends to teach us things………
~Gary~
If a rifle loosens up due to this over-tightening, then are the three screws still the only remedy for snugging looseness?
I don’t believe the problem is entirely from wear on the mating surface of takedown ring. I think some of the looseness my be in the barrel threads.Over tightening of the magazine tube may have some effect on the coarse interrupted threads. Maybe "stretching" the threads somewhat and causing looseness there.
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