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The rifle is shooting straight.
The primer problem and the sticking cases, I have yet to solve. While unloading the rifle during elk season, I noticed differing pressures on the lever were needed to open the action–that was without firing. Just working the lever to empty the magazine of six cartridges, two ejected with a light stickiness, two needed a bit more pressure than those, and two ejected normally. I’ve never felt that in a rifle.
Time to take a closer look at the chamber walls. Test opening the action with the chamber empty and then with cartridges. Measure cartridges for chamber fit. Take the rifle apart and check for burrs, corrosion, abnormalities.
Because this rifle was ill-cared for prior to my buying it, I have taken it mostly apart and cleaned it well. If the chamber or something else doesn’t show the problem, I’ll take the action down completely–clean, and if needed, polish.
I’m enjoying the chase. Hope to have an smooth handling and sweet shooting rifle when finished.
===================================================================
And now, a DUH! moment: Those cartridges that were sticky without having been fired–case necks were contacting the chamber wall.
Glad to see that you got her shooting straight.
In my experience, primers will back out even in 30-30 factory cartridges when fired in a rifle with headspace. 40+ years ago when I first started reloading for my dad’s ’94 in .30-30. His rifle, made in 1939 had .008″ of headspace. I neck sized only and still the primers backed out slightly with factory equivalent loads.
I then made a washer from .005″ shim material that I could drop over the cases, thus reducing the headspace to .003″ when the cartridges were chambered. After firing, the cases were formed to provide .003″ headspace in that rifle. I would then use the FLS die but backed off a bit so that the shoulder was not set back. For the past dozen years or so I have switched to using the Lee Collet neck sizing die with perfect satisfaction.
You could do the same thing using the proper shim thickness to form a washer to fire form cases to fit your headspace, or a steel shim of the proper thickness could be cut and epoxied onto the bolt face providing the firing pin would still extend far enough forward. It is possible that the extractor may need to be relieved to drop over case rim.
I don’t believe that stickiness in the chamber is related to headspace. There is likely some roughness in the chamber that is causing it. The case neck o.d. interference that you indicated on a couple of the rounds would also be a factor.
Good luck and please keep us updated on your progress.
w30wcf
Good tip from 30wcf on the lee collet neck sizer , and your observation that some loaded rounds were sticking and some not , as a bulging crimp caused by longer brass in your batch could make some necks bigger with varying dimensions not visible. might be a good idea to micrometer the necks in several places to check for this (because what other of your re-loading operations would create cartridge size variations ? ) A little lay-out blue on cartridges may also create tell-tale witness marks
Interesting stories like this we can all learn from
Phil
Thanks for the comments, fellows.
I’ve moved toward working on .38-55 loads. The press is now set up for it, so the .25-35 will be on hold for a while. Working with these Winchesters and chasing loads for them is quite enjoyable.
I’ll let you know when I get the .25-35 cycling and shooting well.
hedley lamarr said
Grant
Take a pictures of a fired case with the primer backed out before you de-cap, and also the head, if you would like. If you are unable to post pictures, email them to me at [email protected] and I will post them here. What kind of case stretching are you measuring after firing and resizing? Have you noticed anything about the takedown joint, also in reference to the rifle throwing fliers? You mentioned pitting in the muzzle face, does it contact the rifling or crown?
If you eject a fired case and the primer is sticking out, where did the extra space that allowed the primer to stick out come from? I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I would like to know this myself.
You mentioned no hot rod loads are involved, but perhaps there is something that is making them hot or specifically hot for this rifle. Maybe they are hotter than you realize. The interesting article in Handloader I mentioned went into some problems with head separation in a 25-35 1894 TD if the loads got too hot for that particular rifle. The owner posts here sometimes and I believe he is in WACA, maybe he will add to the discussion.
Thanks,
Brad
If one looks at the SAMMI specs for the cartridge in question, and note the maximum allowed chamber headspace, then compare that to the allowed dimensions of a cartridge, and lastly measure the rim of the shell fired, you will come up with some empty space. Even with the gun in spec, and ammo in spec (or a bit short as factory ammo is at times), theres enough room to back a primer out a noticeable amount.
The loading manuals (Speer?) I’ve looked at in the past showed images of backed out primers noting that it was a low pressure sign. With enough back thrust/pressure, the primers are pushed back into the primer pocket in most normal loads. With as common as it seems in 30-30, I’m thinking that much of the factory ammo isn’t running very high chamber pressure. Even with some headspace, the shell could come back and reseat the primer, and would lead to case head separations before long if reloaded, assuming the cases weren’t just adhering in the chamber well enough that the available pressure wasn’t pushing them back against the bolt face. The Winchesters start the cartridges life in the chamber with a heavy spring pushing them forward (ejector), and have to start working to push the shell head back to the bolt face from that point.
I once was bothered by an old beater 94 that had primers slightly backing out. I took the bolt to a welding shop and had the rear face of the bolt built up with weld. I hand filed/polished the rear of the bolt face until the locking bolt would just barely close on an empty shell. First time I shot it, the primers still backed out a touch. I stopped worrying about it at that point. It doesn’t seem the headspace/primer space resulted from the bolt becoming soft from the welding, I’ve been carrying and shooting that particular gun for about 25 years since then and it hasn’t changed any.
Brad Dunbar said
GrantTake a pictures of a fired case with the primer backed out before you de-cap, and also the head, if you would like. If you are unable to post pictures, email them to me at [email protected] and I will post them here. What kind of case stretching are you measuring after firing and resizing? Have you noticed anything about the takedown joint, also in reference to the rifle throwing fliers? You mentioned pitting in the muzzle face, does it contact the rifling or crown?
If you eject a fired case and the primer is sticking out, where did the extra space that allowed the primer to stick out come from? I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I would like to know this myself.
You mentioned no hot rod loads are involved, but perhaps there is something that is making them hot or specifically hot for this rifle. Maybe they are hotter than you realize. The interesting article in Handloader I mentioned went into some problems with head separation in a 25-35 1894 TD if the loads got too hot for that particular rifle. The owner posts here sometimes and I believe he is in WACA, maybe he will add to the discussion.
Thanks,
Brad
Bert H. said
FromTheWoods said
A quick look at forums for ’94’s with primers protruding–most suggest that a light load will often cause this. I can load a bit heavier and see if the primer problem will disappear.
For a headspace problem, the suggestion was to adjust the sizing die to not work the shoulder of the cases. I could play with that. Might get touchy reloading for two rifles. But if it comes down to it, I could buy another set of dies and and keep the cartridges separate for each rifle.
Looks as if I have to reload more cartridges, and shoot them–poor me! (I’ll enjoy every minute of it.)
Hmmm… I have not ever heard or seen that light loads can cause the primer to back out. In fact, in my experience, it is the opposite. Unless you want to spend the $$$ to fix it, a headspace problem makes it a wall hanger.
Bert
Bert H. said
Backed out primers is a strong indication that it has a headspace issue. Stock cases in the chamber can be a variety of issues, but most likely caused by deformities in the chamber (caused by poor cleaning habits).
Bert
Bert, If the “deformed” bore was slugged, what sort of deformity would you expect to see? Also wondering if swapping in a nice used bolt might help? Seems like one could also just purchase a reproduction or used barrel rather than hang up a fambly hair lip ? These days prices are high for a new Japanese Winchester which while a beautiful rifle (I have 2 of them) just isn’t the same as a 100 years old Winchester (I own many of them). So a good case can be made for doing what is needed to put it right again. Best Regards, Mark
If the primers are backing out or there is a ring around the base about 3/8″ above the rim or the cases stick after being fired when you are trying to eject them you most definitely have over pressured your load. Headspace could be an issue too. If the cartridge is allowed to be banged backwards it can be a problem. Recheck your load data very carefully. Are you using the correct powder for the bullet and make sure you are not loading a MAX pressure load. When loading you can’t just mix and match and tenths of a grain can be critical. Are you full length sizing or just neck sizing?
You can correct loading issues but only a gunsmith can correct head spacing.
Correct me if Im wrong but wouldnt having a new liner installed in the barrel correct the headspace? I know you can buy oversized locking blocks to correct headspace.
Regarding sticky cases:
A friend of mine had sticky cases with very normal loads. He sent me a couple fired cases and I measured their diameters at various positions down the case. It turned out he had a bulged chamber. Every time he fired a round, even with a very normal load, the case would fire form to the bulged chamber and it would be sticky to eject. When I laid a steel straight-edge along the case, I could very clearly see that the fired cases were slightly bulged to fit my friend’s chamber.
I once had an original 1886 45-70 that would eject fine at normal loads, but slightly above normal, it would begin to have sticky cases. I examined the ejected cases and observed that there was a little welt on the outside of each case, indicating that there was a bit of a gouge in the chamber. Upon investigation of the chamber, it looks like someone had had a case head separate a long time ago and couldn’t get the case out, so he got some sort of tool in there to try and pry out the case and ended up putting a very shallow gouge in the chamber wall. Upon firing, the case would fire form to the chamber and the part where the gouge was would expand slightly into the gouge, causing sticky extraction.
If you have not noticed a very slight welt in the outside of your cases with the same location and shape for each fired case, then my guess would be slightly bulged chamber. Take a steel ruler and lay it along the outside of the case from the shoulder to the rim. If the ruler rocks on the mid-point of the main part of the case, there is a good chance you may have a slightly bulged chamber.
Win38-55. Very informative info.
I read the section of Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West by David Chicoine pertaining to the Winchesters. He goes into detail how to fix several problems with the 1873/76 but no repairs for the 86, 92 or 94. Read the section on the repairs to the 73/76 about repairing the bolt and bolt face to adjust the head space and fix excessive wear of the firing pin hole. He recommends silver soldering a shim onto the bolt face. He talks about the correct head space but doesn’t tell how to measure it.
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