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.25-35 throwing bullets
October 29, 2015
4:49 am
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My newest 1894 .25-35 26" Oct TD is throwing bullets.  Also, loads that work well in my other .25-35 are puzzling me--cases sticking in the new one's chamber after the shot, and primers backing 1/2 way out.  No hot-rod loads involved.

I plan to load lead for these rifles, as yet, jackets are being shot out of them:  117 gr. and 86 gr.  Where my other rifle is shooting well with these, the new rifle will shoot one shot accurately and the next can be nine or so inches whichever way--not good, especially when the target was a mere 30 yards distant.

The person who had this rifle before me did not take proper care in cleaning it.  Pitting on the face of the muzzle, gunk on the metal and wood, dirty inside and out.  I cleaned it up to where I am happy with it.

One positive for hunting with it--it has the softest trigger of any Winchester I've shot--someone definitely did a good job on it.  No travel, the pull is slight, seems to fit me well.

I shot enough out of both rifles to know it wasn't the cartridges I was using.

Does a bad muzzle crown throw bullets as this one does?

Is there a problem with the chamber--the sticking cases and backed out primers?

October 29, 2015
11:27 am
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I can't help much with the stuck cases other than make educated guesses.  Someone more knowledgeable can comment.  If your accuracy problem is also muzzle related, I can comment from personal experience on that.  I once owned a 1894 solid frame rifle in 30WCF that had a small crack in the steel in the chamfer at the muzzle face.  It went into the end of the bore about 1/32"-1/16" I suppose.  The rest of the rifling should have been good enough to group something well enough on a target, but it did not, would throw fliers and I believe it had something to do with the damage at the muzzle.  This particular rifle did not have backed out primers and stuck cases at the other end however.

I loaded for a 25-35 rifle back in March and April of this year extensively.  The best accuracy came with 100 and 117 grain bullets at 1900-2000fps, close to the factory velocity of the early 1900s.  It was very accurate with several bullets.  Unfortunately for some this was also in a solid frame Savage 1899 with a 26" barrel.  Undoubtedly it would have one-holed five shot groups at 100 yards had it been a WinchesterLaugh

 

I recorded data from 30 five shot groups and 8 three shot groups (because of limited bullet supply) at 100 yards.  These were the best that could be applicable to a Winchester I believe.

Hornady 117 RN H4895        22 grains      5 -               1 7/8”                      Chronograph set up incorrectly
Hornady 117 RN IMR 4064   22 grains      5 1933 fps    1 3/8”                      2.56 COL
Hornady 117 RN IMR 4064   23 grains      5 2028 fps    1 5/8”                      

Chronograph readings taken 15’ from the muzzle

 

22 and 23 grains of IMR 4064 were also very accurate for me with the 117 grain Remington Core-Lokt in very limited testing.  I had very few of those bullets to try and I would like to find a stash of them again someday.  I also tried Re15 and and IMR 4320.  They were somewhat accurate with 100 grain bullets, but did not do as well as IMR 4064 for me in my rifle.  I recorded 11 total five shot groups with IMR 4064 and the 117 Hornady RN.  The recorded loads went from 21 to 23 grains of IMR 4064.  The best five shot group was 1 3/8" and the worst was 2 3/4".  The average group was  2.011".  My goal was to have a load around 1950fps to 2100fps max.  I was extremely pleased with this accuracy for me at 100 yards with a tang sight.  I realize we have different rifles here, but if/when you get the stuck cases and backed out primers figured out, you might try IMR 4064 and the 117 grain Hornady RN in the future (if you haven't and you can get that bullet and powder).  I also back off the full length sizing die once I have initially fired the new case in the rifle to hopefully prolong case life.  It seems to work for me anyway.  You could also try that (if you haven't already) if/when your 1894TD checks out as safe to continue shooting.

If you get Handloader, June 2015 has an article about loading for a 25-35WCF TD you might also be interested in.

 

Good luck with the 25-35WCF!

Brad

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Brad Dunbar

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October 29, 2015
2:03 pm
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Backed out primers is a strong indication that it has a headspace issue. Stock cases in the chamber can be a variety of issues, but most likely caused by deformities in the chamber (caused by poor cleaning habits).

Bert

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October 30, 2015
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That's dang good shooting, Brad.  You are right--all Winchesters shoot One-Hole groups at 100 yards.  With a Winchester, all your loads would have been perfect.  You'd have to choose your preferred powder by its smell or maybe many coin flips.

Thanks for the load information.  For some of the testing, I was shooting 117 gr Hornady over 22 grains of H4895.  Out of my better .25-35, I wasn't shooting well or the rifle needs the load tweeked a bit.  Wish I had that light trigger in my better rifle.  As it is, the trigger in my prettier rifle is too stiff for those usual One-Hole groups.

Bert, looks as if I get to study headspace problems in '94's.  Is that an easy fix for a gunsmith, or is my rifle a wall-hanger?

October 30, 2015
6:10 am
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A quick look at forums for '94's with primers protruding--most suggest that a light load will often cause this.  I can load a bit heavier and see if the primer problem will disappear.

For a headspace problem, the suggestion was to adjust the sizing die to not work the shoulder of the cases.  I could play with that.  Might get touchy reloading for two rifles.  But if it comes down to it, I could buy another set of dies and and keep the cartridges separate for each rifle.

Looks as if I have to reload more cartridges, and shoot them--poor me!  (I'll enjoy every minute of it.)

October 30, 2015
1:31 pm
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Good shooting Brad

Winchester triggers are easy to lighten by a qualified Gunsmith . there is a huge difference in being able to shoot a 2 lb trigger as opposed to the standard 5-6 lbs overkill stiff trigger , although Brad can handle the standard trigger OK. It is much harder to be perfectly still while applying more pressure to the gun and being less relaxed      Trigger gauges are cheap

I know the trigger is not a cause of the wild flyers and other major problems , just commenting that once issues are out of the way, it is of substantial benefit for fine tuning and best groups

Phil

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October 30, 2015
2:17 pm
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FromTheWoods said

A quick look at forums for '94's with primers protruding--most suggest that a light load will often cause this.  I can load a bit heavier and see if the primer problem will disappear.

For a headspace problem, the suggestion was to adjust the sizing die to not work the shoulder of the cases.  I could play with that.  Might get touchy reloading for two rifles.  But if it comes down to it, I could buy another set of dies and and keep the cartridges separate for each rifle.

Looks as if I have to reload more cartridges, and shoot them--poor me!  (I'll enjoy every minute of it.)

Hmmm... I have not ever heard or seen that light loads can cause the primer to back out.  In fact, in my experience, it is the opposite.  Unless you want to spend the $$$ to fix it, a headspace problem makes it a wall hanger.

Bert

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October 30, 2015
5:32 pm
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Grant

Take a pictures of a fired case with the primer backed out before you de-cap, and also the head, if you would like.  If you are unable to post pictures, email them to me at 1894sightinfo@gmail.com and I will post them here.   What kind of case stretching are you measuring after firing and resizing?  Have you noticed anything about the takedown joint, also in reference to the rifle throwing fliers?  You mentioned pitting in the muzzle face, does it contact the rifling or crown?

If you eject a fired case and the primer is sticking out, where did the extra space that allowed the primer to stick out come from?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I would like to know this myself.

You mentioned no hot rod loads are involved, but perhaps there is something that is making them hot or specifically hot for this rifle.  Maybe they are hotter than you realize.  The interesting article in Handloader I mentioned went into some problems with head separation in a 25-35 1894 TD if the loads got too hot for that particular rifle.  The owner posts here sometimes and I believe he is in WACA, maybe he will add to the discussion. 

Thanks,

Brad

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October 30, 2015
6:58 pm
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Well, I just wrote a long reply to you fellows addressing your help/comments.  Hit the submit button, and it went into Never Never Land.

Writing drains me, so if you'll be patient, I'll write another later.

October 30, 2015
7:26 pm
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That has happened to me too.    very frustrating   Sometimes it happened because the site had logged me out without me noticing, so now I try to remember to copy content of my message, so I can re-log in and re-post the  message by pasting, instead of re-typing 

 

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October 31, 2015
1:09 am
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Normally I do make a copy of longer responses, but not so today.

Also, (and you fellows won't trust my descriptions if I don't wise up) I checked the cases and the primers are not "backing 1/2 way out."  When I was shooting, they struck me as protruding excessively.  When sitting to write my post, in my mind's eye I saw them 1/2 way--quite an exaggeration.  They are around 0.015 backed out.

As for the muzzle crown, yes, it is damaged.  The face of the muzzle is terribly pock-marked/corroded and looks as if it took a pounding.  There is no evidence of an angular recess cut.  The takedown lever at the muzzle shows small dents as if it had been riding on a piece of metal in a rig over a rough road--maybe in the back seat, bumping against the front seat support.  I should have noticed the crown problem prior to purchasing it.  It's mine now though, and if it is not ridiculous, I'll get it shooting straight.

I lined up some of the family's '94 rifles, and with a magnifying glass compared crowns.  I did notice a difference in the width of the recessed cut in the crowns and on the outer flats of the muzzles--they are all octagon barrels.  Some were beautiful, able to be seen and appreciated with the naked eye.  A few others did not show much of an angular crown cut.  I did notice that our .38-55 might have a small scar in its crown.  That rifle has not wanted to shoot tight groups.  But I'll continue to chase that load another day.

Protruding Primers:  As I read the information what usually happens with "normal" loads--at ignition, the pressure moves the bullet forward and pushes the primer backward to the bolt face.  The primer protrudes until the pressure behind the bullet down the barrel slams the case backward into the bolt face, reseating the primer. It is said that with light loads primers can back out and stay there--not enough back pressure to move the case against the bolt face.

I can experiment with powder amounts to see if an increase will reseat the primers.  Also, I'll research the problem--learn more in order to take sane measures at remedying this problem.

Those stuck cases have me concerned.

But, it doesn't make sense to me to solve the primer and sticking problem prior to fixing the crown.  If the rifle is less accurate than a sling-shot,...  Looks as if I'll be visiting the gunsmith next week to have him look at the crown and the chamber.

Brad--I'll track down a copy of that Handloader magazine.  Always a pleasure to read about .94's!  I'll wait on posting photos of the cases.  I should keep track of the loads, the shots, the cases, and primers in order to make comparisons and adjustments.  And yup, the takedown joint did have a bit of play.  After tightening, it still threw fliers.

Phil--It seems sacrilegious to change the trigger weight on these old rifles, but shooting the two in succession helped me decide to lighten the pull on a few of our rifles.  If I could acquire '94's with coupled triggers or set triggers, I'd be in heaven.

Do you want to hear something sad?  Monday morning when I began shooting, my plan was to zero in the newer .25-35 and to hunt deer with it in the evening.  You know what happened with that idea.  My other .25-35 sports a Winchester A5 scope.  I love that rifle, but when I'm in closed-canopy timber, or when the sun begins to set, the little tube gets very dark inside--can't see deer through it even though it is still light enough out to shoot.  So there I am with two beautiful '94's, and I can't use either of them for the evening hunt--Really sad, you bet.  --It gets worse.  Just as Brad confessed he was enjoying shooting a non-Winchester, I too utilized an inferior tool for the evening hunt, and the Really, Really Sad part was, that a buck tarried a tad too long beside his doe girlfriend, and at less than twenty yards, I shot him in the neck--(Does anyone have a Kleenex?)--with a .222 Anschutz!

October 31, 2015
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FromTheWoods said

A quick look at forums for '94's with primers protruding--most suggest that a light load will often cause this.  I can load a bit heavier and see if the primer problem will disappear.

For a headspace problem, the suggestion was to adjust the sizing die to not work the shoulder of the cases.  I could play with that.  Might get touchy reloading for two rifles.  But if it comes down to it, I could buy another set of dies and and keep the cartridges separate for each rifle.

Looks as if I have to reload more cartridges, and shoot them--poor me!  (I'll enjoy every minute of it.)

I was thinking about this when I was hunting this evening, so I started looking through reloading manuals.  I found in the Lyman 49th they mention something about this under the "Pressure Too Low" section: "Excessively low pressure will often allow the primer to back part of the way out of the primer pocket because there is insufficient pressure to force the head fully to the rear."  I would not know if that is what you are entirely experiencing with your rifle, especially if you are also having cases stuck in the chamber.  

I typically fire very light starting loads and re-size with the sizing die backed off after that for as long as possible.  Here is a picture of a 25-35 case that has been loaded and fired a few times.  In this instance the sizing die was backed off when resizing and I think you can see that where the neck meets the shoulder. I think the process has been helpful but I generally do not back the die off quite that far.  Another hand loader suggested sizing only enough of the neck to seat the bullet, I guess to help center the bullet in a particular chamber.  I don't know if it helped or not, but the action closed on the cartridges fine and the results were good enough for me.

DSCN8175.jpgImage Enlarger

I appreciate the discussion as it is a good way for me/us to learn more about handloading.  I hope you are able to get your reply posted next time.

Hey Phil, I don't think too much about the trigger pull.  I guess none of them are bad enough for me to notice!  My Model 70 does have a heavier pull then some of these older rifles, but it is still pretty crisp.  Sounds like it might be nice to try a light trigger someday.

Brad

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October 31, 2015
1:35 am
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One of the gunsmith types here can probably give suggestions on polishing the crown/chamfer where it meets the rifling. 

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October 31, 2015
5:17 am
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From Brad

"I was thinking about this when I was hunting this evening, so I started looking through reloading manuals.  I found in the Lyman 49th they mention something about this under the "Pressure Too Low" section: "Excessively low pressure will often allow the primer to back part of the way out of the primer pocket because there is insufficient pressure to force the head fully to the rear."  I would not know if that is what you are entirely experiencing with your rifle, especially if you are also having cases stuck in the chamber.  "

Yes this is the reason for protruding primer, as the cartridge neck expands upon firing and holds the case forward ,leaving the .015 gap between the cartridge head and the bolt face, allowing the primer to blow back to the bolt face on its own.. but not the reason for stuck cases. (unless your extractor is not grabbing that 'too far forward rim' quite properly ?) (thinking about it now , maybe it could be the problem ?)

Your measurement of .015 protruding is not too bad and you can lengthen your brass the amount of this gap. Having different Dies set for different guns is a no- brainer easy way to make best brass for each chamber.

With the potential for rear locking bolts to stretch a bit , especially if hot loads were used at any time in history. it only stands to reason that each chamber and headspacing will be a little different on old guns

Fun to experiment , improve your performance and learn for next time. (Thats why we shooters have to keep buying more old guns)

Phil

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October 31, 2015
1:44 pm
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Its really simple once you can visualize your chamber

The best way to make the strongest custom brass for your longer headspace chambers is to obtain new or once fired brass. Open the neck up about .015 with a neck expanding mandrel ('M' die type ) from a larger caliber  through the entire neck  for this one time initial procedure. (or borrow an appropriate die from a re-loading friend ) 

Then simply bring down your backed off FLS die bit by bit and keep trying the case in the intended guns chamber , until bolt will lock up snugly. Then you can screw FLS die down another small fraction to ensure smooth bolt closing. If only using the FLS die for this gun this should be your permanent setting for reloading for this chamber

The small bump left at shoulder intersection by your increased neck expansion operation (called a false shoulder) will hold the cartridge head against the bolt face, and upon firing a fairly mild - medium load will fireform the cartridge custom to your chamber and should fit perfectly

This 'false shoulder' method is better for brass longevity than simply firing the regular brass untill it stretches the full length of headspace, because by doing this you are thinning out the brass in the wrong place (just before the head) and may lead to head separations after a few firings,

The 'False shoulder' method is pretty well a necessity for the more excessive headspace scenarios

With your new formed brass you are now headspacing off the shoulder as in the case of the more modern rimless cartridges

Although its not good to believe anyone on the internet, These are not just things I have read about , or untested theories. These are steps I do for every gun I shoot, ( more nessessary for antique guns ) and I have been determined to have my brass fit my chambers in 40 years reloading , especially after having to form brass precisely for B/R competition, with a Wildcat case former and designer as a mentor

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October 31, 2015
7:15 pm
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Thank you fellows for your thoughts and comments on this problem.  Had I been shooting one load, we could focus on maybe one problem at a time.  As it stands, I was testing two rifles, two kinds of powder, and two bullet weights--thought the newer rifle would zero with one of these combinations.  Next time out with this rifle, I'll limit the variables.

The cases were mildly stuck.  The extractor worked well.

I appreciate the lesson in lengthening the case.  Thanks Phil.  I'll read up on it more.

"Fun to experiment , improve your performance and learn for next time. (Thats why we shooters have to keep buying more old guns)"  Excellent reasoning here!  But when I read this to my wife she scoffed and said, "Yeah; that's one man's opinion--two men's.  Looks as if you've found your niche there, Grant."  After thirty-six years she still doesn't understand.  She was given a rather obvious clue even before we were married.  My first major gift to her was a rifle.  You'd think she would have seen what she was getting into!  

November 2, 2015
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I can't comment in an intelligent fashion on the backed out primers other than to say it usually indicates headspace issues. But the rifle throwing bullets to widely different points of impact is puzzling to me. I have a .32/40 model 1894 made in the early 1900's. It left the factory as a 26 inch octagon, full magazine. Sometime in the following century someone cut the barrel to 21 inches and shortened the magazine. When I first fired it the bullets never even hit the paper at 50 yards. I moved the target to 25 yards and they hit the paper keyholed. The condition of the bore was a little rough so I figured it was shot out and resolved to part the rifle out. Before doing so I removed the barrel, trued it up in a 4 jaw chuck on the lathe and recrowned it. It showed all the signs of a hacksaw job being sawed off crooked. Back to the range at 25 yards the bullets all hit the paper end on and in a group about an inch in diameter. 

In my experience crown damage doesn't usually cause wild fliers but generally enormous groups and keyholed hits. It seems weird that your gun will shoot to point of aim for one shot and way off for subsequent shots. Is your rifle tight at the takedown joint or is there movement there?

November 2, 2015
8:55 pm
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The takedown junction is tight--now.  I tightened it after the first few fliers.  The rifle has a tang sight, so I too thought the loose joint might be the problem.

I've been reading about recrowning barrels.  This one is so bad that it appears a clean crown is necessary.  The rifle has a good bore, so it warrants a decent attempt toward getting it to shoot straight.  Selling the problem to someone else is not an option.

Since my youngest son "inherited" my .270 this summer, I'd like to get this rifle shooting well prior to elk season.  (Yes, it is a tad light for downing elk.  Neck shot to bone--it will suffice.  I'm color-blind enough that tracking blood is a nightmare, especially in the fall with wet, colored, and speckled leaves on the forest floor.  Very few chest shots taken in my life of hunting.)

I'll let you fellows know my results of trying to fix this rifle. 

November 3, 2015
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If the bore is good there must be a solution. I would be interested to find out how it comes out in the end.

November 5, 2015
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Danger Ahead!          Get back, he has a drill!

I thought I would never get a drill or a dremel tool within several feet of my Winchesters, but.... Monday I hit our town's old fashioned hardware store, looking for a shaft with a curved head--like a brass screw or bolt--and buffing compound.

Didn't find any cool ready-made chamfering tool like one of those a sane person would purchase from Midway USA or Brownell's. Came home with a few sizes of round-headed bolts and buffing (car) paste. The bolts had a screwdriver slot in them, so at home I checked my I-might-need-this-someday stash and found a better chamfering head--it is the little handle one finds on sliding-bolt window latches. In the drill, it was nearly centered; slightest wobble.  Polished it on the bench grinder/buffer, and headed for the rifle.

I plugged the bore (from the breech) with a rod and patch to where the patch could act as a dam just inside the muzzle, keeping a pool of the buffing wax where the tool could utilize it.  It felt awful, touching that rotating piece of brass to the Winchester's muzzle!  Once the first contact did not spell the doom of our planet, I felt a tad better and went to work at it, applying light, steady pressure on the muzzle while rotating the tool.  After maybe a half hour, and examination with a magnifying glass, it seemed to be ready.  Cleaned the bore.

Tuesday I did get to shoot it.  Not at paper, but at one and two inch pebbles and leaves on a mud bank.  At 50 yards, every bullet performed well.  No strays, and great consistency.  Later this week I'll have time to shoot targets for evaluation.  Hooray!  It worked!

-------That is one problem down, two to go.  From Monday's shooting all cases mildly stuck after each shot.  All spent cases from 86gr and 117gr loads had protruding primers.  --It doesn't make sense that too heavy of a load (sticking cases) would not result in flattened primers.  And how can a too light load (protruding primers) cause sticking cases?  I'm thinking the sticking problem and the protruding primers are from a single problem.  The answer might be that the chamber is rough or has a burr--something is holding the cases, not allowing them to move back against the bolt and reseat the spent primers.

This afternoon, I lightly polished the chamber.  I'm looking forward to the next shooting session.

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