Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters




sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_Print sp_TopicIcon
1st model 44/40 reload help needed.
January 25, 2021
3:39 am
Avatar
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
November 30, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hey all, looking for your favorite smokeless loads for a very early 1873 rifle. 44/40 caliber and lead slugs only. Originally wanted to shoot black powder but the bore is pitted pretty good and figured it might be a real bitch to get it cleaned. If it shoots decent I will go this route. If it shoots like the general Mid Eastern militiaman, then I will re line the barrel. Been reloading 35 years so yes, I am well versed in smokeless loads in a black powder barrel. I melt my own projos so that's the main reason for going with lead slug loads. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Jim

January 25, 2021
4:32 am
Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3001
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Probably no help to an experienced reloader like you, Jim. My 38WCF load is 8 grains of Unique and as you probably know that will be a good place to start with the 44WCF. Based on what I’ve read about the 44WCF and my experience involving a 38WCF with a sewer pipe bore I’d recommend a soft lead bullet sized .431”. I tried the BP approach in my .38 and it was fun...for awhile. Good news is that apparently it takes only a short section of marginal rifling to stabilize a lead bullet in these old 1873’s. 

Good luck, keep us posted!

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
January 25, 2021
2:50 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 931
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 What has worked good for me in old 73's is cast not sized in the original Winchester mold. Buy a original Winchester mold with a good cavity and cast your own. The rounded oversize of these molds gives you a one size fits all bullet for these old guns. Back in the day when Winchester sold these tools, they where designed for shooting unsized hand lubed. It takes a little getting use to but that steel mold can cast nice bullets. The mold can be bought for about $100 on EBAY and sold later for the same if you don't like it. I use wheel weights and drop the bullet in a pail of water. T/R

January 25, 2021
3:07 pm
Avatar
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
November 30, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

TXGunNut said
Probably no help to an experienced reloader like you, Jim. My 38WCF load is 8 grains of Unique and as you probably know that will be a good place to start with the 44WCF. Based on what I’ve read about the 44WCF and my experience involving a 38WCF with a sewer pipe bore I’d recommend a soft lead bullet sized .431”. I tried the BP approach in my .38 and it was fun...for awhile. Good news is that apparently it takes only a short section of marginal rifling to stabilize a lead bullet in these old 1873’s. 

Good luck, keep us posted!

 

Mike  

Teetering on whether to go pure lead or wheel weight like most of my other calibers. With the pitting I'm not sure which would work best. I have 2100 pounds of wheel weight and 200 pure lead so I guess I can experiment. LOL. Probably slug the bore and hope to get a good enough diameter to measure and go from there. Still waiting for someone to chime in with a bullet weight, probably going to get a 200 grain and either Tumble Lube it or fill the grooves. 

January 25, 2021
3:10 pm
Avatar
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
November 30, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

TR said
 What has worked good for me in old 73's is cast not sized in the original Winchester mold. Buy a original Winchester mold with a good cavity and cast your own. The rounded oversize of these molds gives you a one size fits all bullet for these old guns. Back in the day when Winchester sold these tools, they where designed for shooting unsized hand lubed. It takes a little getting use to but that steel mold can cast nice bullets. The mold can be bought for about $100 on EBAY and sold later for the same if you don't like it. I use wheel weights and drop the bullet in a pail of water. T/R  

I'll have to try the tempered bullet also. Do that with my .45 for my full auto Stemple, less leading. Thanks. Jim

January 25, 2021
6:59 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 502
Member Since:
November 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have two earlier 1st models, a carbine in the 6XXX range and a rifle in the 9XXX range.  Both are very high condition with bright shiny bores.  I use only 200 grain hard cast lead bullets from Lazer Cast.  Over the past 50 years, I have cast thousands of .44 WCF bullets for my 73's and 92's with an old Lyman 427198 or an original Winchester mold.  I've always tried to keep them 16:1 pure lead and tin mix.  Casting is a lot of fun, but buying pre-cast/lubed bullets is sooo much easier.  I don't shoot my early guns very often because of the condition, but I load 8 grs. of Unique.  Bullets are pre-lubed, sized to .428.  Both guns shoot great, but it's like shooting a pop gun with these mild loads.  

January 26, 2021
2:23 am
Avatar
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
November 30, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The barrel slugs out to .433. Ugggggh. WTF can I do? None of the Winchester molds for sale mention a size other than 44 WCF.... Should I take the plunge and hope it mikes out close to what I want, .434? I mean, I could shim the mold a couple thousandths if it's too small. It would make a somewhat oblong bullet.....

 

Jim

January 26, 2021
4:55 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 502
Member Since:
November 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I can tell you one thing, if you have to use a bullet .433 or .434, the bullet will probably be too large to chamber a round.  

January 26, 2021
10:58 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 204
Member Since:
January 7, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

My Model 92 slugs at .4285, so I use an .430 LBT FN 200 gr boolet from COWW.  I've experimented with 6.0gn Trailboss, 5.0gn Clays, and 9.0gn Universal.  I haven't settled yet on the powder and worked the best load yet but those are my starting loads. Regards, Ron

Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....

WACA #10293

January 26, 2021
1:43 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 931
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 Jim, You say your gun is a very early 73, what's the serial number, whats the general condition, maybe it's worth more just the way it is? If you reline a three digit gun that's collectable, you've destroyed it's value. T/R

January 26, 2021
6:28 pm
Avatar
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
November 30, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

TR said
 Jim, You say your gun is a very early 73, what's the serial number, whats the general condition, maybe it's worth more just the way it is? If you reline a three digit gun that's collectable, you've destroyed it's value. T/R  

Serial 4649. The rifle was missing hammer, springs, side plates. Look at my post on restoration. Titled Looking for 1st gen 1873 Winchester.

 

Jim

January 26, 2021
6:31 pm
Avatar
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
November 30, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

rwsem said
My Model 92 slugs at .4285, so I use an .430 LBT FN 200 gr boolet from COWW.  I've experimented with 6.0gn Trailboss, 5.0gn Clays, and 9.0gn Universal.  I haven't settled yet on the powder and worked the best load yet but those are my starting loads. Regards, Ron  

Your rifle was made for a higher pressure round than mine. Pretty sure mine has an iron frame/receiver, made for black powder.

Jim

January 26, 2021
6:34 pm
Avatar
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
November 30, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

win4575 said
I can tell you one thing, if you have to use a bullet .433 or .434, the bullet will probably be too large to chamber a round.    

Well, that would suck.... But I read somewhere that someone did it. Not sure where...

 

Jim

January 26, 2021
7:33 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 931
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 Sorry Jim, I'm back on the same page. Your trying to make a working gun out of what you have. Is a gun with no collector value worth relining? T/R

January 26, 2021
11:24 pm
Avatar
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 41
Member Since:
November 30, 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

TR said
 Sorry Jim, I'm back on the same page. Your trying to make a working gun out of what you have. Is a gun with no collector value worth relining? T/R  

Well, it's worth money to a collector in the shape it's in from what members here have said. But it's worthless to me if I can't shoot it. I plan on restoring it and taking my time to do it right. But honestly, it has to have a liner put in in order to shoot it.

 

Jim

January 26, 2021
11:46 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 502
Member Since:
November 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If you have it relined, I  would highly recomend finding someone who is very familiar with relining antique firearms.  Here is what I  mean.  Most gunsmiths will reline a barrel by boring it out clear through the muzzle end.  After this is done, you can see the liner at the muzzle end.  Some gunsmiths, if they know what they are doing, will bore the barrel to within 1/16th inch of the muzzle.  When liner is seated in place, the ORIGINAL END AT THE MUZZLE, shows no evidence of a liner.  Original patina  as left intact.  The muzzle end of the liner is then recrowned.  The only thing that shows is the slight recrowning of the muzzle end of the rifling.  You should be able to find someone who can line your barrel with the same pattern lands an grooves, but in a bore diameter of .427 to .428.  This would make it a piece of cake for reloads and shooting.

January 27, 2021
2:13 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 931
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

win4575 said
If you have it relined, I  would highly recomend finding someone who is very familiar with relining antique firearms.  Here is what I  mean.  Most gunsmiths will reline a barrel by boring it out clear through the muzzle end.  After this is done, you can see the liner at the muzzle end.  Some gunsmiths, if they know what they are doing, will bore the barrel to within 1/16th inch of the muzzle.  When liner is seated in place, the ORIGINAL END AT THE MUZZLE, shows no evidence of a liner.  Original patina  as left intact.  The muzzle end of the liner is then recrowned.  The only thing that shows is the slight recrowning of the muzzle end of the rifling.  You should be able to find someone who can line your barrel with the same pattern lands an grooves, but in a bore diameter of .427 to .428.  This would make it a piece of cake for reloads and shooting.  

 I can tell if a old Winchester has been relined every time. How hard you look depends on how much the gun is worth. When they use a thick wall linner, weld it at the muzzle, age rust the muzzle and bore it's hard to find unless you go in the chamber with a bore-a-scope. On a shooter, who cares, on a collectable gun the collector cares. For me a gun with a liner is a deal breaker. T/R

April 8, 2021
2:42 am
Avatar
North Carolina
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 50
Member Since:
February 11, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

possumslobber@swnebr.net said
The barrel slugs out to .433. Ugggggh. WTF can I do? None of the Winchester molds for sale mention a size other than 44 WCF.... Should I take the plunge and hope it mikes out close to what I want, .434? I mean, I could shim the mold a couple thousandths if it's too small. It would make a somewhat oblong bullet.....

 

Jim  

Try Ed Harris's 43-200Q from Accurate Molds here: 

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-200Q

Read Ed's report: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/ancient-history-part-2?authuser=0

Ed Harris's clever idea to address a common problem with old black powder 44WCFs. Front band large enough for groove diameter, lower bands small enough to fit in the case to fit chamber. Your selected "Body diameter" will apply to the major diameter at the top of the crimp groove. Heel diameter is below the crimp.

Also, if accuracy is a problem with any bullet, try a duplex load. These loads replicate Winchester's "Lesmoke" duplex loads.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/shasta/reloder-7-duplex-loads

April 8, 2021
10:40 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1308
Member Since:
March 6, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

TR said

On a shooter, who cares, on a collectable gun the collector cares. For me a gun with a liner is a deal breaker. T/R  

I’m on the same page with T/R about liners.

WACA Member
CFM Member
NSCA Member

Don’t get the water for the coffee downstream from the herd

Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 628

Currently Online: Bert H., twobit, pdog72, clarence, jsgwoodsman, Lt. Mike
56 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)


Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 16

Topics: 8553

Posts: 73374


Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1151

Members: 10173

Moderators: 4

Admins: 3


Top Posters:

1873man: 4779

TXGunNut: 3001

clarence: 2761

twobit: 2657

Chuck: 2542

steve004: 2043

Maverick: 1719

Big Larry: 1578

JWA: 1511

RickC: 1308