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Hey all, looking for your favorite smokeless loads for a very early 1873 rifle. 44/40 caliber and lead slugs only. Originally wanted to shoot black powder but the bore is pitted pretty good and figured it might be a real bitch to get it cleaned. If it shoots decent I will go this route. If it shoots like the general Mid Eastern militiaman, then I will re line the barrel. Been reloading 35 years so yes, I am well versed in smokeless loads in a black powder barrel. I melt my own projos so that’s the main reason for going with lead slug loads. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Jim
November 7, 2015
Online
Probably no help to an experienced reloader like you, Jim. My 38WCF load is 8 grains of Unique and as you probably know that will be a good place to start with the 44WCF. Based on what I’ve read about the 44WCF and my experience involving a 38WCF with a sewer pipe bore I’d recommend a soft lead bullet sized .431”. I tried the BP approach in my .38 and it was fun…for awhile. Good news is that apparently it takes only a short section of marginal rifling to stabilize a lead bullet in these old 1873’s.
Good luck, keep us posted!
Mike
What has worked good for me in old 73’s is cast not sized in the original Winchester mold. Buy a original Winchester mold with a good cavity and cast your own. The rounded oversize of these molds gives you a one size fits all bullet for these old guns. Back in the day when Winchester sold these tools, they where designed for shooting unsized hand lubed. It takes a little getting use to but that steel mold can cast nice bullets. The mold can be bought for about $100 on EBAY and sold later for the same if you don’t like it. I use wheel weights and drop the bullet in a pail of water. T/R
TXGunNut said
Probably no help to an experienced reloader like you, Jim. My 38WCF load is 8 grains of Unique and as you probably know that will be a good place to start with the 44WCF. Based on what I’ve read about the 44WCF and my experience involving a 38WCF with a sewer pipe bore I’d recommend a soft lead bullet sized .431”. I tried the BP approach in my .38 and it was fun…for awhile. Good news is that apparently it takes only a short section of marginal rifling to stabilize a lead bullet in these old 1873’s.Good luck, keep us posted!
Mike
Teetering on whether to go pure lead or wheel weight like most of my other calibers. With the pitting I’m not sure which would work best. I have 2100 pounds of wheel weight and 200 pure lead so I guess I can experiment. LOL. Probably slug the bore and hope to get a good enough diameter to measure and go from there. Still waiting for someone to chime in with a bullet weight, probably going to get a 200 grain and either Tumble Lube it or fill the grooves.
TR said
What has worked good for me in old 73’s is cast not sized in the original Winchester mold. Buy a original Winchester mold with a good cavity and cast your own. The rounded oversize of these molds gives you a one size fits all bullet for these old guns. Back in the day when Winchester sold these tools, they where designed for shooting unsized hand lubed. It takes a little getting use to but that steel mold can cast nice bullets. The mold can be bought for about $100 on EBAY and sold later for the same if you don’t like it. I use wheel weights and drop the bullet in a pail of water. T/R
I’ll have to try the tempered bullet also. Do that with my .45 for my full auto Stemple, less leading. Thanks. Jim
I have two earlier 1st models, a carbine in the 6XXX range and a rifle in the 9XXX range. Both are very high condition with bright shiny bores. I use only 200 grain hard cast lead bullets from Lazer Cast. Over the past 50 years, I have cast thousands of .44 WCF bullets for my 73’s and 92’s with an old Lyman 427198 or an original Winchester mold. I’ve always tried to keep them 16:1 pure lead and tin mix. Casting is a lot of fun, but buying pre-cast/lubed bullets is sooo much easier. I don’t shoot my early guns very often because of the condition, but I load 8 grs. of Unique. Bullets are pre-lubed, sized to .428. Both guns shoot great, but it’s like shooting a pop gun with these mild loads.
The barrel slugs out to .433. Ugggggh. WTF can I do? None of the Winchester molds for sale mention a size other than 44 WCF…. Should I take the plunge and hope it mikes out close to what I want, .434? I mean, I could shim the mold a couple thousandths if it’s too small. It would make a somewhat oblong bullet…..
Jim
I can tell you one thing, if you have to use a bullet .433 or .434, the bullet will probably be too large to chamber a round.
My Model 92 slugs at .4285, so I use an .430 LBT FN 200 gr boolet from COWW. I’ve experimented with 6.0gn Trailboss, 5.0gn Clays, and 9.0gn Universal. I haven’t settled yet on the powder and worked the best load yet but those are my starting loads. Regards, Ron
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
WACA #10293
Jim, You say your gun is a very early 73, what’s the serial number, whats the general condition, maybe it’s worth more just the way it is? If you reline a three digit gun that’s collectable, you’ve destroyed it’s value. T/R
TR said
Jim, You say your gun is a very early 73, what’s the serial number, whats the general condition, maybe it’s worth more just the way it is? If you reline a three digit gun that’s collectable, you’ve destroyed it’s value. T/R
Serial 4649. The rifle was missing hammer, springs, side plates. Look at my post on restoration. Titled Looking for 1st gen 1873 Winchester.
Jim
rwsem said
My Model 92 slugs at .4285, so I use an .430 LBT FN 200 gr boolet from COWW. I’ve experimented with 6.0gn Trailboss, 5.0gn Clays, and 9.0gn Universal. I haven’t settled yet on the powder and worked the best load yet but those are my starting loads. Regards, Ron
Your rifle was made for a higher pressure round than mine. Pretty sure mine has an iron frame/receiver, made for black powder.
Jim
win4575 said
I can tell you one thing, if you have to use a bullet .433 or .434, the bullet will probably be too large to chamber a round.
Well, that would suck…. But I read somewhere that someone did it. Not sure where…
Jim
Sorry Jim, I’m back on the same page. Your trying to make a working gun out of what you have. Is a gun with no collector value worth relining? T/R
TR said
Sorry Jim, I’m back on the same page. Your trying to make a working gun out of what you have. Is a gun with no collector value worth relining? T/R
Well, it’s worth money to a collector in the shape it’s in from what members here have said. But it’s worthless to me if I can’t shoot it. I plan on restoring it and taking my time to do it right. But honestly, it has to have a liner put in in order to shoot it.
Jim
If you have it relined, I would highly recomend finding someone who is very familiar with relining antique firearms. Here is what I mean. Most gunsmiths will reline a barrel by boring it out clear through the muzzle end. After this is done, you can see the liner at the muzzle end. Some gunsmiths, if they know what they are doing, will bore the barrel to within 1/16th inch of the muzzle. When liner is seated in place, the ORIGINAL END AT THE MUZZLE, shows no evidence of a liner. Original patina as left intact. The muzzle end of the liner is then recrowned. The only thing that shows is the slight recrowning of the muzzle end of the rifling. You should be able to find someone who can line your barrel with the same pattern lands an grooves, but in a bore diameter of .427 to .428. This would make it a piece of cake for reloads and shooting.
win4575 said
If you have it relined, I would highly recomend finding someone who is very familiar with relining antique firearms. Here is what I mean. Most gunsmiths will reline a barrel by boring it out clear through the muzzle end. After this is done, you can see the liner at the muzzle end. Some gunsmiths, if they know what they are doing, will bore the barrel to within 1/16th inch of the muzzle. When liner is seated in place, the ORIGINAL END AT THE MUZZLE, shows no evidence of a liner. Original patina as left intact. The muzzle end of the liner is then recrowned. The only thing that shows is the slight recrowning of the muzzle end of the rifling. You should be able to find someone who can line your barrel with the same pattern lands an grooves, but in a bore diameter of .427 to .428. This would make it a piece of cake for reloads and shooting.
I can tell if a old Winchester has been relined every time. How hard you look depends on how much the gun is worth. When they use a thick wall linner, weld it at the muzzle, age rust the muzzle and bore it’s hard to find unless you go in the chamber with a bore-a-scope. On a shooter, who cares, on a collectable gun the collector cares. For me a gun with a liner is a deal breaker. T/R
[email protected] said
The barrel slugs out to .433. Ugggggh. WTF can I do? None of the Winchester molds for sale mention a size other than 44 WCF…. Should I take the plunge and hope it mikes out close to what I want, .434? I mean, I could shim the mold a couple thousandths if it’s too small. It would make a somewhat oblong bullet…..
Jim
Try Ed Harris’s 43-200Q from Accurate Molds here:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-200Q
Read Ed’s report: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/ancient-history-part-2?authuser=0
Ed Harris’s clever idea to address a common problem with old black powder 44WCFs. Front band large enough for groove diameter, lower bands small enough to fit in the case to fit chamber. Your selected “Body diameter” will apply to the major diameter at the top of the crimp groove. Heel diameter is below the crimp.
Also, if accuracy is a problem with any bullet, try a duplex load. These loads replicate Winchester’s “Lesmoke” duplex loads.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/shasta/reloder-7-duplex-loads
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