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November 27, 2018
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Hello! I’m back again trying to learn more about authenticating some of the more rare calibers of the Pre-64 Model 70. Hoping someone is willing to weigh in with thoughts on this listing. You don’t see too awfully many of this caliber, and I have read lots of insight as to where a lot of the more obscure calibers can potentially be faked. I believe the seller to be very reputable and I don’t know whether the gun is for real or not. I also think the gun is already in price currently as is, likely out of my range, but I do enjoy watching how high some of them go for.
The seller doesn’t actually define it as being an “original” rifle, but one would assume it could be. My observations, the finish looks exceptionally nice. Seems odd, yet not impossible. The caliber marking does not match up to what is portrayed in Rule’s book for the appropriate caliber. Date of manufacture based on serial lookup is 1954 which falls outside the date range of being cataloged, but would fall into the last year of date being manufactured according to Rule’s book. Lastly, I feel like I see a definitive difference in the bluing finish on both sides of the front sight which is probably the biggest thing I noticed. Maybe I am wrong, but would appreciate any call outs on my assessment, and as always any additional feedback in helping me to learn more is always greatly appreciated. Thanks all!!
Cole
August 27, 2014
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Cole,
Fwiw the gun looks good to me
May very well be one of the Hudson Sporting Goods barrel clean-up guns
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
August 8, 2024
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I agree with Tedk. Barrel clean up gun that Winchester did in 1954. It would be interesting to see what the barrel bottom reads. I had one like this around 30 years ago. I believe that it had a 1949 barrel.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Cole-
As has been stated, odds are that it’s a genuine “barrel cleanup” gun. It appears to be in very high condition, so I cannot exclude a “professional restoration”, but I’d need to handle the gun to venture an opinion.
The 250-3000 SAV was last cataloged in 1949. The latest barrel dates I’ve seen on them are ’49. Looking at the M70 survey, there are a lot of 1949 M70s in 250-3000 Savage, then very few between 1950 and 1953. But 1954 was the big “barrel cleanup” year, and I’ve got (5) 250-3000 SAV (plus this one) with serial numbers between 297xxx and 299xxx. Notably 5 of the (now) 6 I’ve recorded are in Monte Carlo stocks. Several other oddball calibers also show up in this narrow s/n range, like 7 M/M, 35 REM, 300 SAVAGE…
Most of these oddball slow sellers were distributed through Hudson Sporting Goods in NYC. From June through September 1954, Hudson ran ads in the sporting press offering these “brand new” (their words) rifles. Here is an ad from the September 1954 American Rifleman confirming that you could buy a M70 Standard rifle in 250-3000 SAV with either MC or low comb stock.
Hope this helps,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 27, 2018
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Thank you to all 3 of you for the feedback. Always good to learn about the history and trying to authenticate these rifles!
August 4, 2023
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I’ve enjoyed collecting over the years…I started out coin collecting. Wheat back pennies to be exact… maybe bottle caps came 1st. Over the years I collected what interested me. Whatever I enjoyed collecting, I got priced out of it for one reason or another. I could give so many examples. With firearms it’s no different. I can appreciate the quality of the craftsmanship of the pre-64 Model 70. The price of these guns doesn’t lay with their craftsmanship anymore, it’s with their collectability. That brings out the scammer, and faker. Who gets hurt from this is the rich guy that buys these pieces, and continues to drive up prices, and the collector that becomes priced out. Especially when collected for investment, I’m having a harder and harder time feeling sorry about the faker making money off these people. Those of you that own the legit pieces… good foresight. I still enjoy the quality of yesteryear over the sacrifices made for profit that are so often seen today. The authenticity part of collecting is the work I least enjoy, and has become so important in every purchase. I marvel at the dedication some of you guys have. Even if I could afford the prices the concern of what’s real and what’s fake is taking the enjoyment out of firearm collecting. This may be just me, but I’m feeling it enough to write this, and think my collecting days are nearing an end.
The rifle looks nice and high condition. Good specimen. I look closely at the O and 0 characters in the caliber stamping. My opinion is The barrel of my 257 roberts and 264 win have similar looking characters to this specimen. the barrel of my 220 270 300 win and h&h and 243 look to have straighter wall 0 characters, Most of my model 70s the 0 in 70 and model look very similar, a few of the earlier models seem to have a clear designation in the “O” versus the “0” character, this deviation seems to have lessened as into the later SN ranges. I do not see anything that stands out on this rifle for modification. although buyer beware.
November 5, 2014
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Hi farmerrick-
You can’t draw many conclusions comparing caliber stamps on 250 Savage barrels with those on rifles whose barrels were made after 1950.
The subject rifle, while built on a 1954 action, is very likely to have a ’49 date barrel with Style 3A roll mark (my guess on date 
). The important point being that until 1950, Model 70 caliber designations were applied using a separate (from the barrel address/model roll mark) die stamp. Those die stamps are generally composed of characters 0.100″ tall, and since they were usually finished by hand (something factory engravers did when there wasn’t anything more pressing), there is a degree of variability from die to die.
In 1950, the factory went to one-piece roll dies where the caliber designation was part of the Style 3C roll die. Those have characters 0.080″ high, same as the “MODEL 70” part of the die, and are generally more consistent in appearance than the hand stamps. But Winchester dropped several chamberings after 1949, and the 250-3000 SAV was among them. The VERY few (exactly two) 250-3000 SAVAGE barrels I’ve seen marked with a one-piece roll die read “250 SAVAGE –” not “250-3000 SAV.”…
Here’s a pretty good looking 250-3000 SAV. die stamped caliber designation. It’s an earlier barrel so the roll mark part is Style 1, but that’s not the point. Compare this one to the GB gun…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
