Winchester Model 70 7mm with a G serial and only 6 numbers|Page 2|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

Zeb and Ted-

It’s certainly true that DOM information on USRACo and later M70s and M94s is something of a “black hole” due to the absence of factory records in public hands.  It’s also the most common question I get about M70s via the “Contact Us” portal or calls placed to Heather (just before the “What’s it worth?” question).  I’m sure Bert’s experience with the M94s is far worse, b/c there are more of them out there!!! 

IIRC something that Danny Michael mentioned to me during the Cody Show last year was that he had reason to believe that some of the USRACo production records were moved to Columbia SC when the New Haven plant closed.  They’ve likely never been examined or summarized by FN/BACO but they may (???) be there.  Danny said he was going to look into it…  Beyond that, I’d tend to agree that BATFE is likely to be the only repository for USRACo production records.  Whether those records have been summarized or not is unknown…  They may just be in the manufacturer’s equivalent of a “bound book” sitting in a warehouse somewhere…

In the absence of reliable data, some information (of uncertain accuracy) is out there.  Madis’ table covering M70s goes through 1992, so covers 12 years more (USRACo) M70 production than the Olin records CFM has.

The (very approximate) 1992-2002 S/N ranges for regular production M70 Classics (CRF action) has been posted on the 24hr Campfire, where some contributors have an interest in these post-1992 rifles.  I believe this is observational data, not based on factory records, but it’s perhaps better than nothing.

The real “mystery” is/will be the Custom Shop “Classics”, S/Ns G1 through G9999, as the numbers were used concurrently with the regular production series and blocks were sometimes set aside for “special” projects.  Unless someone (Pauline?) has the complete Custom Shop records, these may be very hard to pin down.  Short of Zeb spending a week or two paging through BATFE files in Washington DC…

As for the FN/BACO M70s made in SC and later, they can be dated if you can read the “code” in the serial number.  These are the rifles for which the current “Winchesterguns” (Browning) can/will provide DOM information to callers.  This is a clip from a 24 hr Campfire post.

I do agree that, even though they’re not “Winchesters” in the formal sense, finding this information and making it available to others is a way to enhance WACA’s stature amongst younger firearm enthusiasts, and encouraging someone with post-63 knowledge/interest to serve as the contact person would do likewise. At essentially no cost to the Association… Besides, if I read the last couple posts correctly, it seemed to me that Zeb and Tedk were volunteering!!!

Cheers,

Lou

Hi Bert-

If you want to send me your Excel copy I’d like to have it. Would save me a lot of typing (and the attendant errors I’d no doubt introduce). You know my e-mail.  Those (1936-1963) numbers in Rule are supposed to be derived from daily PR logs that he had access to.  They are not in Cody, but Pauline has some (or all) of them.  

The stuff I put above pertaining to USRACo production of M70s is not verified/verifiable insofar as I know.  I only included it b/c I haven’t found anything else to use when answering post-63 M70 questions, and I always tell the person asking that post-63 DOM dates are “approximate”.  What, for example, did Madis use as a source for 1964-1992?  PR logs or “annual production” figures? Or worse, some combination of sources?

PR logs (SNA date) are accurate b/c receivers were numbered sequentially, e.g. s/n 100 preceded s/n 101, etc.  But “annual production” figures, even if accurate, have no clear relationship to serial number b/c receivers were not used to assemble rifles in S/N order.  For example, Rule also (quoting Madis) has a table (Table 2-2 “Annual Serial Numbers for Model 70 Rifles – Total Production”) where he states SERIAL NUMBERS 1-2238 are from 1936, 2239-11573 are from 1937, etc.  This CANNOT be accurate. Even if we know (from PR logs) that exactly (3406) M70 receivers were serialized in 1936, and IF the M70 production total for 1936 was (2238) as Madis stated and Rule copied, that doesn’t mean that receivers 1 through 2238 (of the 3406 available) were the ones used that year.

Here’s something that will cause confusion… For a handful of pre-war years, the McCracken Library has copies of summative reports on M70 production (either by Model or by Model/Caliber – NOT by Style).  Some are “Net Orders Received” by Model or Caliber, some are “Total Production”, some include “Specials”, some do not.  All are actual factory documents prepared in-house and for 1939-1943 all three reports are present.

Staring at this table I put together will cause vertigo… But the bottom line is that none of the numbers agree, if for no other reason than because they are reporting on DIFFERENT things.  Orders ≠ Production ≠ Shipments, etc.

So if I were you, I’d leave the WACA Serial Number lookup, which for M70s ends with 1980, alone until such time (if ever) that we locate accurate SNA data on USRACo production.

Cheers,

Lou